Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

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Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by SA on Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:58 pm

Its the opposite of the TI deep spear, where pressure is on the top of the arm to pivot the legs up.
its used  a lot in competetive swimming, and a shorter scrappier version in openwater swimming.
It is a form of pushing water down at the front, so to counteract some kicking is needed, but it gives a lot of power and some form of relaxation on the downglide for a fraction of a second too.
The guy uses it mainly on the left arm, like in  a loping style, but almost symmertical in this case.
Hope nightcrawler can add some of it in his stroke.

ej precatch to catch





bridgekick



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVRDzJYKx4s


Last edited by SA on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:13 pm


As an ow swimmer i can say that it is not able to be done in ow where water is not stable as in the pool. For my winter race in Feb 2017 5k in cold and choppy water i used towork on high elbow catch with curved torso like this, in the pool i could sustain the 1:18 pace but in the race i could manage only 1:32, because the choppy water distrupted my technque after 200-300m, then i changed my techniqe to shorter and with less pre-catch version during the race and became faster in the rest meters. By the way, th fasters TI guy had finished 1 hour behind me Very Happy So that i once more experinced that in choppy water mid and backend phaees are becoming more important.

I had the same experince 1 month ago in Cunda 2k ow race where i beated national team swimmers In that race after seeing that i couldnt sustain my pace with long stroke i immediately in the few hundred meters of the race changed my stroke to shorter and punchier stroke with less kick and higher cadance i started to pass them one by one and became the 2nd in general ranking with a remarkable pace according to my country's ranking.

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by SA on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:31 pm

he takes 20-22 strokes per 25 m. thats not a long stroke.
The basic technique is used all over the place in open water swimming.
Dont let your feeling overwhelm your rational thinking.

I dont know about really rough water.
Its not simply high elbow. The whole dynamics is different from a backend stroke.
I doubt you can switch from one style to the other just like that. You also have to train a lot on one style to make it work.

He was a top open water swimmer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8DSNeNMc6w (same connection and mechanics)

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:48 pm

In the below video you may see my front end catch with high elbow but not extreme as David Davies, i dont have such flexible elbows and shoulder rotation due to.lack of flexibility:
https://youtu.be/iWJDI9lX6Ts



Comparing an amateur class swimmer with a world cass is not true and is not constructive, serves to no purpose because amateurs dont have such tough genes and hard training sessions.

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by SA on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:56 pm

nightcrawler wrote:In the below video you may see my front end catch with high elbow but not extreme as David Davies, i dont have such flexible elbows and shoulder rotation due to.lack of flexibility:
https://youtu.be/iWJDI9lX6Ts



Comparing an amateur class swimmer with a world cass is not true and is not constructive, serves to no purpose because amateurs dont have such tough genes and hard training sessions.

OK if thats the case then improvement stops there. You cant swim with moves you cant make.
cant you dip/roll the low shoulder deeper while you keep the elbow at the same place/line during extension?
If thats impossible you cant indeed prestretch-load the paddle to body like a lot of elite swimmers do.
Sorry if it comes accros as harsh and demotivating. Its all compared to elites to see it in perspective.


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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by SA on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:14 pm

I am totally hooked on improving good front traction and hooking up the paddle to the body, even with avarage shoulder flex (better than avarage now, its getting better and better)

this is from the TI forum:

After more time with the extra shoulder rotation thing I realise its mostly to simply get a good catch combined with good extension.  Its used for getting an internal shoulder rotation, but not by moving the arm, which is keeping a wide  track, but by rotating the shoulder girdle  a bit furher just before locking in on the water. The above water side also makes recovery easier, which can help prevent shoulder problems.
A nice demonstration can be seen at this clip at the 32.....57 sec mark for example.
The roll almost stops when he extends the arm in the water and than accelerates again to the maximal angle which is effectively internal rotation on a stable forearm in the water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hABj_CuyFog

I doubt this is really advantagous for shoulder health, but its certainly effective in getting good traction on the water.
You have to be a bit patient and wait for the roll to start reversing before pulling back out off this internally rotated arm position to avoid shoulder problems, but when thats done it seems to be ok.

Timing:roll has just reversed a split second ago


Its also a matter of getting used to the action, which requires shoulder flexibility, stabilty and strength , depending how far you go with it.
Anyway, I am not having problems with it while trying,and going to make this an automatic movement for the coming year.


Open water technique. Dont hear anything about back end push
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WbooEltD8E

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:33 pm

After trying a technuque for a couple of years there may be such a situation that i may realize the new technique isnt going further and also pace is not improving, then i need to return and start from the beginning with a new technique or pick your old technique again, spend few years with it then again try another techniques, it has always been like this for me.

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by SA on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:30 pm

I wouldnt change technique this race season. Forget it for now.
If races are over maybe its fun to try other techniques again..

If you have an anchor in front, you can use the trunk to reel that anchor in, just like the trunk action of the climber:
trunk climbing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M0Lnqp2s1M
calvin justus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV7cbM6sEpw(at 3min 13. pretty extreme example of the technique)
Gianottis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIRXaf3ZPrs ( at 7 min mark)

its a fun way to swim, but takes a lot of core action.Takes time to train it and use it optimally while not bending and hurting streamline too much.

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:04 am

SA wrote:calvin justus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV7cbM6sEpw(at 3min 13. pretty extreme example of the technique)
its a fun way to swim, but takes a lot of core action.Takes time to train it and use it optimally  while not bending and hurting streamline too much.

In the above video of calvin justus there is no anchoring, he is just throving the arms around the sides of his body, no hand elbow recovery and anchored high elbow catch, very little rotation... This is the technique that I am currently imitating, in the frontend my hands wasting less time for the catch and mostly focuses on the pull and push phases in order to reach higher stroke cadance(turnover) which is the easiest way to keep the momentum still and save energy and eliminate the pauses at the front.

I am happy with my left arm but my weak right arm is sometimes slipping the water and also sometimes dropping after the catch. You may obviously see it in the below video, SA(smooth arnie) couldnt have realized and commented on my right arm issue yet  Very Happy
https://youtu.be/XIQi6U7FqtA

Once an olympic swimmer in my next lane had lively watched my technique under the water and has told the same. I think this is because of my operated(had an operation  from my shoulder 5 years ago) left arm's being more bulky and lazy, sometimes right(faster) arm is waiting for my left arm to comlete its recovery and while waiting right elbow drops. In order to correct this there is no solution, on e arm drill doesnt help because each arm works better alone than working together Very Happy

Picture when a moving car collides into a parked car. The kinetic energy of the moving car gets transferred into heat, crumpling metal and kinetic energy of the parked car that now starts moving. Swimmers are working in an open system—we cannot isolate the kinetic energy of a rotating body or a recovering arm, as if it were a closed system, because all of the body parts are connected. The motion of one part affects another. Like the cars colliding, the energy of a counter-rotating body or a recovering arm, when timed correctly, can positively impact the propulsive forces of our hands and feet. Further, all the forces of nature, such as gravity and drag, are acting on the system simultaneously. Coupling motions require more work, and if we succeed, we can use them to our benefit by enabling us to swim faster.

Another example of a coupling motion that is a little easier to visualize is the elite long jumper, who keeps moving his legs and rotating his arms in the air, after the force of the takeoff leg has occurred. So long as the effect of the leg force is still in place and the body is still flying through the air, the coupling motions can augment the effect of that propulsive force, resulting in a longer jump. Simpler and more common coupling motions are the arms swinging while walking. The arm swing adds no propulsive force to the gait, but results in a longer stride.

So that as I mentioned before in my other post that there cannot be concept of "symmety" in swimming, because human body is not symmetrical. So obey your DNA dont resist it, dont let the TI company to damage your nature. lol!

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:48 pm

There is no propulsive force created during front end traction:
https://youtu.be/IMyH69BDjbg

So, for better pace we must focus on middle pull and back end push.

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by SA on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:50 pm

thats way to black and white.
I also think its only a part, and only when done right , but at the same time, look at how fast this guy is moving while arms are under a forwards angle. sculling is different compared to the fall into the catch I know, but no proplsion is the other extreme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5a8ltIjFEE (2 min 18)

Havriluk measures the pressure difference over the hand surface and  concludes the highest propulsion force is delivered at the endpush. Maybe the relative speed of the handpalm is highest at the end, but that is the only left surface at the end, (small surface high speed at the end, big surface small speed at the start) the rest of the arm isnt measured and that surface is much bigger at the start if done well.
So a high force measured this way doesnt prove much. Big paddles are more efficient in transfering force to the water than small ones. You have to take the change of paddle surface during the stroke into account.

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:38 am

New additional movement means new additional time loss.
Freestyle technique originates from crawling and it has no any sculling movements in its nature at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHVi8hPcnbE

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by Don Wright on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:03 am

In FS with a lot of "catch-up" arm action - isn't there a danger that unless the "waiting" arm is kept up close to the surface (i.e not allowed to be slightly inclined towards the bottom - as "nightcrawler"'s "catch-up" clip shows) - one is pushing a narrow wedge of water forwards, between the surface and the arm - which is going to have a retarding effect!
However all is OK if both arms are in continuous motion.

Was interested to see in "SA"'s clip - circa 1:02, that the swimmers right arm was sometimes "passing the elbow" - an "apparent dropped elbow" - he was just bringing the upper right arm past the vertical while the wrist was ahead of the right elbow.  Did not notice that with the left arm action.  This "passing the elbow" thing is OK  I think, since it can can be used to give a bit more "oomph" to the up-sweep - pinching a bit of  the normal range of the "pull" phase, in order to add to the range of the "push" phase. I've tried it a few times - but was not very convinced!

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:47 pm

SA wrote:thats way to black and white.
I also think its only a part, and only when done right , but at the same time, look at how fast this guy is moving while arms are under a forwards angle. sculling is different compared to the fall into the catch I know, but no proplsion is the other extreme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5a8ltIjFEE (2 min 18)

2:18 is not crawl technique, it is another thing (may say sculling with semi-dolphin kicking).
Again I have to repeat that in freestyle's nature there is crawling not sculling, sculling movements are in butterfly and breastroke.

On the other hand the guy Sebastian Karas is a well known open water swimmer, once I had chance to compete with him in an open water race, he is an elite athlete, as is seen from his shape he is spending most of his time training. I wish I had the same free time to swim more and do more dry land exercises, swimming more really makes the difference, you gain powe and flexibility, and a better stronger methabolism.

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Re: Pre-catch pressure and bridge-kick

Post by SA on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:51 pm

Every time there flows more water away on one side of the hand relative to the other there is some water flowing from one side of the hand to the other. This is a sculling component  per definition.
I have yet to see the first swimmer who can pull perfectly straight back.
Thats nitpicking offcourse, but you get the idea.
The majority of the pull is just pushing water back, but usually there is quite some sculling involved also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGUNNrpny2U&list=PL0eQA6v0V7XETreUMbgNtaBjEmZ9u0RqF
No sculling?
(i agree at higher strokerate there is less time for all this exagerated scullng  nonsense. sculling is more a byproduct of automatic learnt movement )

What is your opinion on undulation movements in freestyle? I think a bit of undulation in a corkscrew kind of way is not a problem , perhaps even a good sign.
What do you think?

and back to the catch.
The difference in technique is pretty obvious isnt it? Cant see something that cant be done because of shoulder stiffness. Its in the rotation and loading of the armpit and arm. Your flatness at this point of the pull is usually combined with the arm at shoulder height while you are still at the catch..BUt as said before some is optimal for one, some is optimal for another swimmer.
I had some figures about the pulling force of VD Hoogenband and Thorpe. Thorpe is a back end pusher, accelerating from front to back, Hoogenband gets the most of the force before and around the shoulder height. Cant find them anymore.




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