becoming a swimmer

View previous topic View next topic Go down

becoming a swimmer

Post by SA on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:15 am

the awereness of what the upperbody is doing is usually OK.
Problem is that the forces that the upperbody delivers on dryland are always coupled to forces on the ground.
We have built this connection over years and it has become unconscious.
When we go to the water the lower end still behaves like on dryland , even if the automatic movements dont have any use in the water.
After much practice we learn to connect the upperbody to the lower part and the lower part to the water in a more aquatic way.
Gerrys taut swimming with snorkel and band/pulbuoy covers 80% of the transformation.(for a shoulder driven stroke)

become swimmer


From walker to swimmer
Stage1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQbKCHsRIyk
Stage2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGJsnw8gKyM
Stage3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LDbps7O5Ps

SA

Posts : 287
Join date : 2016-12-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by Don Wright on Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:16 am

[q="SA"]...When we go to the water the lower end still behaves like on dryland , even if the automatic movements dont have any use in the water.
After much practice we learn to connect the upperbody to the lower part and the lower part to the water in a more aquatic way...[/q]

Yes ,it takes time/practice to get it right.  I learnt from SS the importance of not exerting power until some limb, or portion of it,  is backward-facing.  The arms (especially the hands) being more adaptable in the differing positions they can take, must always be able to provide more impetus than can come from legs doing a flutter kick - no matter how flexible the feet are.  IMO we need to remember to keep a "torpedo" shape as much as possible during freestyle, so in that respect deep kicking is "out" (OK I know it's different for the breast stroke kick!). To compensate for "loss of power", it seems to me that we should strive to make our flutter kicking rapid/shallow - which is usually quite a way from how a "beginner" kicks!  However! there are some "unfortunates" (like myself) who have inflexible ankles/feet - so it works out for me. that it is best to almost forget about using the legs, and rely on smart/quick body rotation as each arm makes water entry, to cause the relaxed legs/feet to move (as they feel inclined LOL) to give as little disturbance to the flow of water surrounding the body, as possible - which of course is just a 2-beat action! Despite saying that, I do practice explicit 2-beat and 6-beat kicking as well and even tried with legs only a "quick shimmying" (a rapid shallow up/down) action of the thighs leaving the lower legs relaxed - found that quite effective but tiring!

Bye / Don

Don Wright

Posts : 12
Join date : 2017-07-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:49 pm

I swam in the 80’s-90s-2000s-2010s and still swimming also coaching since 1995 and still going strong at 40. The one thing that I always try to do is learn what the latest trends, coaching approaches and technological assets are. But I put a little skeptical twist to actually incorporating it into my programs. I think a lot of the popular scientific coaching trends are poorly researched and don’t stand up to the “test of time”.

For example; I never got into the “stretching trend” that started in the 80’s and was popular until just recently. What I observed is that many of the hyper flexible swimmers were the better swimmers but they had an inherited tendency to that flexible. If a person who was less flexible worked on their flexibility, it didn’t make them a better swimmer in correlation to improved flexibility. But yet so many programs spend hours on stretching every week. They wasted a lot of time on something that had no correlation to their improvement. I think the latest trend of dryland training is headed in the same direction. I think some of the extremely weak or unfit swimmers do benefit but most swimmers are wasting their time. No one has yet to prove the increased measurable muscle strength in the weight room actually makes every or even most swimmers faster. Yet as coaches we are “brainwashed” in clinics that hours should be spent doing dryland because the national team or professional coaches do it.

I’ve actually seen many swimmers(also myself) not maintain their improvement curve or get slower as they get stronger in the weight room or become obsessed with their “out of water” fitness routines.

I think the time we spend in the pool training should not be compromised by time spent out of the pool. Training hard and event/race/target specific in the water is what makes a swimmer fast. The now debunked concept of hyper stretching and the present trend of dryland just dilute and mislead many coaches/swimmers to think there is another way to achieve success other then doing hard training in the pool. For example to teach backstroke to your age group swimmers have them wear socks when they are learning backstroke kick, they should try to kick their socks off (proper kicking technique), which can not be achieved/taught easily and effectively like this through any dry-land exercise!

Another and the best advice I’ve ever received or can give to new coaches and my students is “pick something and be great at it”. When you first start working with a group of master swimmers or kids or a program it can seem incredibly overwhelming and hard to decide where to start and how to have everyone be successful.  In picking a skill, stroke, or race component to excel at, you’re able to gain some focus and move the group as a whole toward a common goal. You as the coach get to become an expert in that area and you and your team gains confidence in their skills because of their excellence in that area. The skill can be as simple as first breath second stroke or as complex as a specific race strategy execution. Decide as the coach what you excel at instructing and what you believe is key to fast racing and help your students be as passionate about that component. As you grow with your program be prepared to grow your focus, before you know it, you’ll be an expert in lots of components of this sport and you’ll have some phenomenal results! For example, after doing hundreds of drills and trying/imitating dozens of techniques in the open water I developed my own unique "nightcrawler style" and have been trying to make it as ambrosial as possible in line with my genetic capabilities.

Swimmingly,
NC (Turkish Masters Open Water Team Member)


nightcrawler

Posts : 465
Join date : 2016-12-20
Age : 40
Location : Istanbul/Turkey

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by s.sciame on Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:38 pm

SA wrote:
From walker to swimmer
Stage1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQbKCHsRIyk

Note that he turned in under 41s, which is really not bad given the newbie technique (a few years later he swam the 100s in under 57s). Stage1 for some is already faster than Stage2 (or even Stage3) for others.

Salvo

s.sciame

Posts : 191
Join date : 2016-12-07
Location : Rome, Italy

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:01 pm

s.sciame wrote:
SA wrote:
From walker to swimmer
Stage1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQbKCHsRIyk

Note that he turned in under 41s, which is really not bad given the newbie technique (a few years later he swam the 100s in under 57s). Stage1 for some is already faster than Stage2 (or even Stage3) for others.

Salvo

By the way the level 3rd(Anna Karin Lundin) is an ex Swedish olympic swimmer she competed in 1988 Seoul, in her middle age she still performs well IMO, better with her natural style in comparison to TI balderdash below that she had got rid of:
https://www.facebook.com/MindBodyAndSwim/posts/307465212714651

While she was using the TI technique her remarks were:
Anna Karin Lundin, former Swedish Olympic swimmer who turned to Total Immersion and became TI coach... .After attending 5 day TI Coach training she said "The result is that I now understand how it feels to work with, not against, the water, and know that I will never return to my old way of swimming." Very Happy

nightcrawler

Posts : 465
Join date : 2016-12-20
Age : 40
Location : Istanbul/Turkey

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:28 pm

Shame n us! Buzz off, go home and spend tome with grandchldren Very Happy
https://www.instagram.com/p/BWforU0gx22/

nightcrawler

Posts : 465
Join date : 2016-12-20
Age : 40
Location : Istanbul/Turkey

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by SA on Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:25 am

tried this week to swim with a completely dead body below the waist and a pull buoy.
First there was some connection left but after a while the stroke got worse and worse.
Couldnt get a decent catch anymore. Had to bend the wrist a lot to get any traction.That horrible broken wrist pull. Everything was messed up and felt i was dragging a bucket through the water.(even with a pull buoy)
Then started to add a bit connection to a minimalistic 2BK and this tiny amplitude leg action made a world of difference. Suddenly there was glide and time to setup the catch. From the outside the kick probably was hardly visable, only the secundary effect of bodytone from toe to shoulder. Adding some extra upkick to the 2BK also made a big differnce. Its so weird that tiny changes can make such big perception differences.

SA

Posts : 287
Join date : 2016-12-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by cottmiler on Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:39 am

SA,
Were you trying to follow Gerry Rodrigues' advice about using an ankle band and pullbuoy in order to straighten up the body?

http://triathlonmagazine.ca/blogs/training-tuesday-angela-naeths-favourite-swim-drill/

cottmiler

Posts : 195
Join date : 2016-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by SA on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:48 pm

No, I was swimming only with the upperbody, with the rest of the body dragged along as a dead sandbag.
Not a good idea.

There is some truth in the inside out theory.
You have to be strong and active from the midsection, just like a fish.
Sort of a controlled version of this muscle action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NyA_soEiE0

If you combine this with the wel know slight twist from front to rear, and hook up an curved arm at the end of this movement you already have some proplusion from the combined twist and undulation movement.
Add some lateral core bending if you really want to go crazy.

the way Anna Karin lifts her upperbody for sighting is partly the same as the boy lift his upperbody from the ground
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LDbps7O5Ps

Janet Evans also has a lot of this fish on the dry action in her stroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02I7GFwYuw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy1GUeC_0dk
The lifting isnt only caused by pushing water down with the arm.

SA

Posts : 287
Join date : 2016-12-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by cottmiler on Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:50 am

SA has had a "Eureka" moment by discovering the cottmiler's Twitch!

If you swim in slow motion, you feel for the catch, tilt the hand and twitch in order to pull the body over the hand/arm. If you don't do the twitch but rely only on the feet to rotate the body then I think you are making a lot more drag. This is because our feet action does not push us forward in any meaningful way, but just separate and lie in the path of the water flow.

Some people can swim quickly with an ankle band because their feet are together and legs very straight and therefore streamlined. I believe this is even more important in rough water.

If you look at Ann Karin above you can see her legs are straight as chopsticks and not pushing her body forward with with any thrust. The body rotation is instigated by the hand action as soon as she gets the catch at the front.

Unco is how you can experiment with this.

cottmiler

Posts : 195
Join date : 2016-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by SA on Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:48 am

Talking about 2Bk, or after rotational kicks in whatever kick.
I dont use the legs for propulsion, but very much as moving rudders to stabilise the rest of the body.
My idea of the twitch is to for example have pressure on the front of the right leg  from thigh to toe, giving some lift on that right side, and letting drop the left hip followed by rest of upperbody at the other side.
The extension at the left immediately after can help the roll depending how much pressure there is under the arm.
If you spear deep with neutral or pressure at the top you corkscrew forward with extra roll, if you keep elbow wide and high trying to get the barrel under the armpit you get more pressure under the arm resulting in a more bouncy stroke.
I see the moment your hip fals forward and down from the supported leg as the twitch if you give that action a bit extra power at that moment.
Perhaps you see it differently Smile

SA

Posts : 287
Join date : 2016-12-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:24 am

cottmiler wrote:
Some people can swim quickly with an ankle band because their feet are together and legs very straight and therefore streamlined.  I believe this is even more  important in rough water.

Today morning during my swim clinic lesson i demonstrated my students the ankle band swim. They counted my strokes per lap and measured my time, at the end of each swim i measued my heart rate.
200m freestyle SPL: 17, 2:48, HR:144)
200m freestyle with ankle bands (SPL:18, 2:46, HR:136)
Interesting, isnt it?

So they asked me that why we are using the legs while swimming. My response: "bad habit like a tradition" Very Happy And added that after 100m legs do not produce any propulsive force.

-------
Talking about twitch...
I dont think that twitch is a good stroke element, because a lot of water slips while doing this, nonetheless it is not sustainable due to the usage of big muscles generates great amount of lactic acid.

nightcrawler

Posts : 465
Join date : 2016-12-20
Age : 40
Location : Istanbul/Turkey

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by cottmiler on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:04 am

Good work nightcrawler.

Just to make sure, do the band, no band trials in reverse order and check heart rates again.

It is quite a big thing to advise minimal kicking after learning ankle band swimming as a necessity. It will also reduce oxygen useage won,t it?

cottmiler

Posts : 195
Join date : 2016-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by SA on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:13 pm

Now i really dont understand anymore what other people mean with the hip twitch.

I lended my pull buoy to some guy a month ago. He could hardly move forward and it felt exhausting. Surprised
Hard to imagine how some people swim.

SA

Posts : 287
Join date : 2016-12-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:25 am

cottmiler wrote:Good work nightcrawler.

Just to make sure, do the band, no band trials in reverse order and check heart rates again.

It is quite a big thing to advise minimal kicking after learning ankle band swimming as a necessity.  It will also reduce oxygen useage won,t it?

Today I did the below set:
20x25m crawl with ankle bands int:22" (18-19", SPL:19)
It was fanstastic, and all day I can swim with this pace using ankle bands.
I agree that ankle bands makes us more to focus on streamline, alignment and backward extension of the legs. While doing this, hip and erector-spina muscles are helping to lift the legs more than we are kicking. So that speed is not decreasing thanks to low drag, better alignment and streamline. On the other hand using ankle bands helps to get rid of the dead spots on the front, catch and pull phases are becoming more efficient.

nightcrawler

Posts : 465
Join date : 2016-12-20
Age : 40
Location : Istanbul/Turkey

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by SA on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:50 am

How would you describe the differnce between 2Bk and ankleband swimming Nightcrawler?
Is it about the same, only with a minimal leg amplitude?

ann lift for sighting




Ann normal swim, no lift, same action.

SA

Posts : 287
Join date : 2016-12-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:45 pm

For me they are the SAME only with a minimal "HELTER-SKELTER" or "EXCURSIVE" leg amplitude (when I prefer not to kick consciously because for me no kick is better and more effective&energy-saving than regular 2bk).

But if you insist on doing regular 2bk like Laure Manoudou, then you may visualize that THE EXTENDED ARM SIDE's HEEL SHOULD BE UP ON THE WATER. i.e while left arm extended left heel should be up.  

I am teaching both of them to my students, but I prefer using the 1st in the open water races.

We are not doing rocket science, simple and easy Very Happy

If you havent learned it yet, go home, take your cat or dog beside, drink beer, eat chips, watch TV while scratching your belly Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


Last edited by nightcrawler on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

nightcrawler

Posts : 465
Join date : 2016-12-20
Age : 40
Location : Istanbul/Turkey

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by SA on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:37 pm

I think if you reduce the kickamplitude, you can add a bit of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efo9dqpb1uE
its not rocket science but still elusive for most if you take a look in an avarage pool. You cant see it clearly from the outside.

SA

Posts : 287
Join date : 2016-12-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by SA on Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:25 pm

A great example of trunk driven swimming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3FxdU7JV3A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU7B1hPN-_U (with some different close up footage)

Paul has his frustration about strokelength, mine is being told by the experts to swim straight like a pencil. Sprinter has an issue with TI.
Sorry for  repeating ourselfes.
We have to let off steam.
I think  Gianniottis gets a lot of power by not staying straight.
Its bending in the lateral plane, where Anna Karins bending example was more in the vertical plane. Swimming involves a combination of these 2.











Last edited by SA on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:35 am; edited 2 times in total

SA

Posts : 287
Join date : 2016-12-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by SA on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:29 pm







popov has the same bend




Without being able to get good traction at the front, all this effort to set  up the spring before the release from your anchor is waisted off course.

SA

Posts : 287
Join date : 2016-12-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:21 pm

If you are an adut swimmer, working on our weakest points will not make us faster, please note this! It may sound interesting but true, because it is not trade and there is no SS or TI like marketing behind it, it is my deduction after 30+ years of swimming, there is no profit behind it, just a knowledge share! Myelin shell around the neuron cells is already increased up to its thickest level at the age of 18 for women and 23 for men, then carrieage of the information and (thus learning) through neurons to the muscles in the extremities becomes less, almost none. So using the available capabilities(talents) to reach our goals becomes essential.

That is to say:
Everyone is not the same so we cant standardize the freestyle technique like TI or we cant force low cadance swimmer to swim with higher cadance if that cadance is not sustainable for the swimmer. If you rely on your power, use your power than your technique else, focus on reducing drag by focusing on the technique (note that agility is important at all times but hardly be developed due to myelin shell for the adults). If you have a weak kick dont waste your time at the age of 45 to improve kicking instead develop your pulling. If you have small hands like me, dont concentrate on distance per stroke improve some agility and use a sustainable higher cadance. If you have sinky legs than dont mind it, work your arms and use some muscles from the legs, they will be upper than before. If you dont have flexible arms and legs, swim with small but more agile strokes, etc...

A water polo player swimming totally foul with big splashes, all head almost on top of the water, legs dropping more than an average swimmer can be faster by using his power than an elegant swimmer even in long distances such as 1500m. I had such an experience in Corporate Games 2005, a 18 year old water polo player with a terrible technique passed all of us swam sub 19 minutes around 18:50 with no tumble turns, no underwater kicking and streamline, no side breath, no extension and high elbow catch... It was a big shame! Very Happy

nightcrawler

Posts : 465
Join date : 2016-12-20
Age : 40
Location : Istanbul/Turkey

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: becoming a swimmer

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum