Dont move your head.

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Dont move your head.

Post by SA on Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:36 pm

The comparison with swimming is a bit far fetched, but still...I also think a still head like mr smooth looks cool, but..
One has a very still head, the other one has quite some movement. Doesnt interfere with their basic propulsion mechanism, which is  roughly the same.
As long as your head movement isnt ruining your stroke, see it as a detail Cool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc8Hno4M0Qs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUsQ0wmsS7U#t=111.07077

Crap explanation of the difference. Cheetas have longer stride and higher frequency and a smaller engine?
Thats impossible.
Cheetahs are the sprinters, with higher power output.(but for a shorter time)

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by cottmiler on Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:13 am

The absolutely still head in the lateral plane is in order to minimise the various forms of drag. This is not so applicable for the animals in the air.

As for vertical movement, I imagine that the cheetah needs to keep his eye on the prey, like a life saver in water.

The greyhound will get his feed from a bowl after the race.

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by SA on Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:22 am

I wouldnt advise any learner to move their head on purpose.I agree it can increase fishtailing which increases drag in threory. (not so sure about the bad effect of some fishtailing either, if its a driven fishtail movement).
In reality it often starts to shift a bit as a side effect of other actions, that might be effective.
The problem with the swimming world is that there are all kind of coaches making all kinds of claims about good or bad practice without any proof to back those claims up.

Who can show me a paper where its proven that this shape creates more drag than a shape with the head on the centerline?


Maybe the unicorn pointing arm at the centerline is a better streamlined shape than the arm sticking out at the side? It doesnt look so bad to me.

its just an example, but i tend to question all the given truths from the experts, as you know by now Smile

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by Don Wright on Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:04 pm

When doing unilateral breathing, If one is putting more pushing "oomph" into the freestyle up-sweep, on the non-breathing side, there is IMO a tendency to turn the head (still in the horizontal plane) slightly, in the direction of the shoulder of that arm pushing back/up.  It's just part of the natural movement when exerting a bit more effort! On the breathing side , we are supposed to turn the neck ready for the inhalation during the up-sweep anyway. We don't want the head action to be a bit like a "nodding donkey" - but everything in moderation!

However "M" in his old tome, makes a point that after an inhalation the head ought to be returned to the front in neutral position pronto!  Maybe to minimize disturbance to body balance.  Think it's generally accepted that the "break in rhythm" caused by inhalation can spoil the body's smooth flow through the water - hence some sprinters planning to do it as little as possible over a quite short distance!

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by SA on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:43 pm

https://www.trimes.org/2013/01/swimming-why-did-janet-evans-move-her-head-so-much/

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by Don Wright on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:39 am

"Holy Mackerel!"  I'll try the idea out tomorrow - I do like the idea of inhaling early, so that one can possibly continue inhalation a bit longer (loping again!).  Can see that it needs good balance - wonder if I have the capability to manage it, 'cos when doing a bit of "almost full catch-up" arm action, my balance seems to be rather questionable.

Can appreciate that the "upset" caused by inhalation is mostly over by the time the stroking arm is at the catch or into the pull phase! (So in that respect, it's like the case of some sprinters inhaling as little as possible over a short distance, in order to avoid that "upset".) And can understand that this "early inhalation" takes place while the body is momentarily in a more stream-lined attitude, without the otherwise stroking arm moving down into the water flow beneath the body.

Yes! It seems a good idea from many aspects!

A further thought about trying the idea out!  I wonder if it would help get the head up higher ready for the early inhalation if - just as the rear arm is exiting the water - to "do a quick head nod down a bit" to apply the "Pressing the buoy" idea at that stage in the stroke cycle? (More head movement!) That would result in the "front end" coming up nearer the surface, ready for that early inhalation! If it's a success - what a revelation, and alteration in the previous long-held assumption that the inhalation should start as the up-sweep starts!

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by s.sciame on Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:17 pm

SA wrote:https://www.trimes.org/2013/01/swimming-why-did-janet-evans-move-her-head-so-much/

Interesting theory. However:

- are we sure that Evans and Ledecky really inhale as soon as their head pops out? As you already noted, Gregorio Paltrinieri's mouth is still close when his head pops out. I suspect if someone asked them why they move their head that way, their would answer with something else.

- this applies only at fast rates. At 75SPM (even more), there's still enough time to inhale the old way, return the head to the water and catch. No need to anticipate the inhalation with head vertical movement.

Finally, note Charles' comment on the article Smile

Salvo

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by SA on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:08 pm

havent read the comments so far.
This also has something to do with it perhaps, there is some enrgy rhythm whatever in slamming the face in the water, dive a bit and concentrate on the non breasthing side catch. Early breathing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c28SMt8CraI

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by Don Wright on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:20 pm

Salvo wrote : -


"Interesting theory. However:

- are we sure that Evans and Ledecky really inhale as soon as their head pops out? As you already noted, Gregorio Paltrinieri's mouth is still close when his head pops out. I suspect if someone asked them why they move their head that way, their would answer with something else.

- this applies only at fast rates. At 75SPM (even more), there's still enough time to inhale the old way, return the head to the water and catch. No need to anticipate the inhalation with head vertical movement.

Finally,
note Charles' comment on the article  "

Re the high-lighted bit in red above - what/where is Charles comment about the video that SA refers to?  

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by SA on Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:46 pm

in the comments secton.

Charles G. Couturier dit :
14 janvier 2013 à 14 h 00 min

Not sure I’m willing to follow in the footsteps of your analysis, but I still find interesting the idea that as long as a stroke characteristic doesn’t impair economy, then well it’s just that, a characteristic, not a flaw. I’m especially referring to loping here as well as to asymmetrical strokes etc…

Anyway, nice input!

Charles

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by Don Wright on Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:24 am

Thank you "SA" for redacting Charles comment. (I thought the name "Charles" might just be referring to "SolarEnergy" of SS forum days - and that he had joined here and posted a comment on some other thread!)

It did occur to me that your pic "PTZ Cemter Position" might also be "interpreted" as someone still in the process of inhaling in a fairly normal way, since the rear arm is still UW and apparently finishing it's up-sweep while the lead arm is "waiting"!

Anyway, am looking forward to trying out the idea this morning - but as befits my age as an "oldie", it will all be quite slow.  Intend to try it out to see how well (with a bit of moderate body roll) I can turn my head to the breathing side with lead arm outstretched and rear arm finishing it's "paddle through" to the thigh - in other words very like the pic of the "PTZ Center Position".  I suspect that my mouth may not clear the water line - so will probably do as I suggested earlier, by "pressing the buoy" an instant before the rear arm reaches the thigh, and the head turns (hopefully Rolling Eyes) for air.

(Am no "stranger" to this "Pressing the buoy" business - 'cos as one of my FS variants, I swim a now fairly old "GoSwim" drill in which the arms do normal FS action, but the head is nodded down briefly, immediately after inhalation/arm recovery - leaving the legs to do a vague dolphin waggle - a "lead-in" for later fly efforts.  It gets the mouth well clear of the water at the next inhalation, but the quick return of the head to the front and little nod downwards towards the pool bottom, means that am not looking where am going very much! However, it does use a fast arm turnover with pleasing resultant speed.)

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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by Mike A on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:03 pm

Hi Don, that is indeed SolarEnergy (aka Charles Couturier), but he doesn't post here. He is mostly found in French language places these days. I imagine he is kept rather busy as head Triathlon coach at Montreal University!
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Re: Dont move your head.

Post by Don Wright on Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:28 pm

Did a total of 6x20m trying out this idea of inhaling while  both arms momentarily in stream-lined state (before rest of usual routine).  Used an almost full arm catch-up at the front, and just 2-beat kick at the back. Started each inhalation as the rear arm was about to exit for recovery, while the outstretched lead arm waited for the recovering arm to approach water entry. 

Conclusion : It was much easier than I originally thought - no need to try any "Pressing the Buoy" trick to get the mouth clear of the water.  The only difference I noticed compared with "inhalation on the stroking arm's up-sweep" was that I needed to turn my neck slightly more with only the usual amount of body roll (found myself looking, with topmost eye, a little above the pool side deck instead of lower across a little trough.  At least I wasn't "ogling" the ceiling! Smile )

Don't quite know how to apply the idea with my usual "continuous" arm action, because the whole point of that is to have the lead arm at the catch or into the pull, just about the time the rear arm is exiting the water - so there is no clearly defined instant when the arms are "fore/aft" in a stream-lined attitude!

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