Time to Breathe

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Time to Breathe

Post by cottmiler on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:39 pm

Observing the longer freestyle races at the 2017 FINA World Swimming Championship in Hungary, it seemed that everyone does a loping stroke.
In contrast, in the shorter races their strokes seem much more symmetrical.

It dawned on me watching Ledecky swim an 800 m race that the reason for the lope is that she has to spend more much time on one side than the other in order to breathe!

I now understand that because Ledecky and others are swimming so fast, they must therefore have a high or very high cadence. That in turn means that a bilateral breathing action is impossible owing to the fraction of second available for breathing being just too short compared to when they lope and breathe on one side only.

When very good swimmers on the SwimSmooth forum told us that “loping is good” I thought they were just saying “do what you can, as a weakling don’t bother trying to have a symmetrical stroke”. I now realise that the lope is an absolute necessity when swimming faster.

We know men usually need more air than women as is known from subaqua.

However, although I can lope very happily, it remains vitally important to me (as I chase the best form) to have an equally strong pull on either side so that I can lope and breathe either side at will.

Comparing lap times will help.

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:39 pm

Cottmiler, you are confused and confusing the others too.

There is no correlation between loping and one side breathing, in all types of breathing patterns you can lope.
See my "nightcrawler technique" with loping in each 3 arms after inhaling. The difference is for loping I am doing a dolphin kick here after each breath in each 3 strokes, other swimmers do that with normal flutter kicking pattern, this speciality with hybrid dolphin kick lifts the legs up and then dives my head 2-3cm into the water and according to the Bernoulli's principle I glide more and the SPL decreases,i discovered this 5 years ago and named it as nightcrawler technique:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzk37g_nightcrawler-freestyle-technique2_sport
Ehowed this technique to Turkish national team swimmer and 6th times olympic swimmer Derya Buyukuncu(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derya) with whom at that time I was swimming in the same pool. He liked this style but recommended me to use 2bk instead of dolphin kick, because dolphin kick leads to more fatique due to its using more big muscles.

Now I am also doing a same kind of loping in each 3 strokes but this time with normal flutter kicking pattern (pausing after hand entry a bit for doing a lope in each 3 strokes):
https://youtu.be/XIQi6U7FqtA

On the other hand,loping is not limited with short distance swimmers, it is also used by marathon swimmers and 1500ers like Ferry Weertman, Oussama Mellouli, Ryan Cochrane, Park Tae Hwan, etc...
https://youtu.be/QtemK7rOZR8

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by SA on Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:29 pm

I can hardly see any lope.
Cottmiler may be confused, but its obvious that breathing is easier with a bit of lope.

Can you show a real big lope like this Nightcrawler?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHq6oJfHmZA

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by Don Wright on Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:15 am

A question for you experts!

When one is swimming FS with a fast arm turn-over rate (i.e. wind-milling like crazy - no, or negligible, arm glide!)  - is it "sustainable" over a short distance (100m or 200m perhaps) to quickly "sip" a small quantity of fresh air when the window of opportunity comes around, rather than adjusting the stroke (loping?) to give more time to "suck-in" a proper inhalation?

Since, with the fast arm turn-over rate, the window of opportunity comes around more frequently - I would hope the answer is YES!  The only problem is that exhalations must be explosively short (and might be curtailed by the arm-timing), to avoid "blowing-up" with stale air!

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by SA on Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:27 pm

if your breathing technique is very good... I still dont like the short air intake opportunity in swimming.

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by Mike A on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:41 am

For my money, loping is an inevitable consequence of the fact that even elite swimmers take a tiny bit longer on their breathing stroke. Think about it - if you focus on total symmetry, you are really just slowing down the non-breathing stroke to match the breathing one. If the extra symmetry achieved pays back in streamlining what it costs in pull-time, it's worth doing. Though, watching Olympian swimmers, it looks like in most cases it doesn't!
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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by s.sciame on Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:09 pm

fwiw I see quite the opposite (look from 1:10 below): lopers take longer on their non breathing long stroke, ie when they "dive" in the water. The breathing stroke is the shorter one and the one when the body gets higher for an instant before diving again, just like breastroke timing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax77_hHq9Dc

What I experienced myself in the past with loping is that you have more time to exhale (not to inhale), which is fine. And you can lift stroke rate in a less perceivable way, because on one side (the non breathing side) you still allow yourself plenty of time to do a long pull.

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by Mike A on Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:36 pm

Interesting. Would have to analyse in very slow motion to see what's going on then. Is the extra rotation for breathing helping the recovery to be faster? Is the pull on the breathing side slightly shorter? Or is there a slight delay to catch on the other side?

Not that it probably bears much comparison to Mr Phelps, but I do find I tend to pull longer and stronger when not turning to breathe, as a consequence I think of a flatter body position.
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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by Don Wright on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:43 am

All this chat about "breathing" has prompted me to get out my front snorkel for my next session.  Will try it out again using an almost full arm-catch-up style FS (almost anathema to me!) and 2-beat kicking - you can't get much lazier (and slower!) than that!  The last time I used it, think I moaned that the air tube was rather small and didn't give me the air volume/transfer I hoped for.  But have since done a bit better with that arm catch-up style (curling the hand of the waiting arm over, in preparation for a catch).  Previously, used to feel as if I was losing balance, as the recovering arm came over, approaching water entry and the waiting arm.

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by cottmiler on Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:55 am

This thread has thrown up completely contrasting views which is interesting.

For the individual, the way to test which hypothesis is correct is to wear your bleeper set at desired strokes per minute and check what happens when you do some distance doing the lope.

No swimming this morning for us as no one turned up to open up the pool etc..

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by SharkTank on Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:24 am

My neighbor who won our 4km OWS race is a loper. Strong swimmer of course. In this swim block I wanted to find more speed, as I would need to bridge a lot to get to the podium in that 4km run. He was swimming a tick over 4 km/h. Can anyone here sustain that pace?

I was wondering if I should try loping. I went to speedo tech paddles and found my left arm was the pits. Got that working now. Spending ~40% of my time on paddles. Really cleaned up my hand entry. I added a B70- Helix suit to the mix and have hit my goal pace.

Not loping per se, 1:3 to start then I switch to 1:2 if I need more air. Just getting stronger I guess.

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by SharkTank on Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:49 pm

Some thoughts on loping:

1. Loping actually starts with the kick. For a RS breather, the left leg, left arm. hip drive/pull and subsequent kick-fest setup the breathing side pull.
2. On the breath, the kick is shutdown, hoisted into a low drag state and reloaded. Pull is never turned off of course.
3. After a strong pull during breath, the explosive action of #1 is repeated.

Loping is by-product of the whole action. IMO you can't set out to "lope". You can set out to execute a certain way and if that looks like a lope in the end, well then you are getting the juice on. The hips actually stay pretty level, as level as other strokes.


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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by Don Wright on Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:02 am

s.sciame wrote:fwiw I see quite the opposite (look from 1:10 below): lopers take longer on their non breathing long stroke, ie when they "dive" in the water. The breathing stroke is the shorter one and the one when the body gets higher for an instant before diving again, just like breastroke timing.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax77_hHq9Dc

What I experienced myself in the past with loping is that you have more time to exhale (not to inhale), which is fine. And you can lift stroke rate in a less perceivable way, because on one side (the non breathing side) you still allow yourself plenty of time to do a long pull.

Salvo

Think it was "cottmiler" who on the SS forum first posted a GoSwim video clip of loping  -  several years ago!  They said it was a "fun-thing" to temporarily experience the exhilaration of going faster, by diving forwards into the water while kicking like crazy.  What was not said - but IMO applies - is that such action is in effect "Pressing the buoy" and is bound to result in an upward movement of head/shoulders making inhalation easier.  In the process the body depth relative to the surface can vary by several inches - bringing us back to Salvo's mention of breast stroke (undulation up/down during the stroke cycle, in the "wave" style of BS)

I enjoyed replaying the clip in Salvo's post - food for thought on several points - but aint got the time now - just off for my next session at the pool!


Last edited by Don Wright on Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by SA on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:14 pm

head almost out of the water when taking a breat. Doesnt get much more comfortable than that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNtWZq9JM6g (45 sec)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VvGM0WuJ3I
If your are making a sinus wave with the head around your normal no wave depth, the high part of the wave will be higher than normal, and gives time enough to breathe. Certainly when a loping stroke is never 100 strokes/min or more.
Over the complete cycle you are not pushing up, its just a bounce on buoyancy around the neutral line (well, for a significant part, just like fly)

Maybe you dont have longer time to breathe, because the loping rhythm dictates the window of opportunity to breath, but your chance of swallowing water is reduced with the higher mouth position. If you are dense like Phelps there is less of the wave coming above water, reducing the time to breathe on top of the wave.
You can breath on the same mouth height as non lope while having less head turn if you are a really fast inhaler.
That can be a plus.

strange that paltrinieri could start inhaling earlier, but he starrt to open his mouth when he already is over the top and falling.




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Re: Time to Breathe

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:51 pm

I want to ask your opinions about hypoxic training. As far as i observed and tried hypoxic workout is not necesessary above the distances 200m. Brent Rushall trying to state the same i think.

https://swimswam.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/USRPT.pdf

 

With the ever-increasing emphasis on underwater double-leg kicking over considerable distances, there is the possibility that the lactacid energy system will come into play in the hypoxic conditions of underwater work. The energy system utilizations of surface swimming and underwater skill executions are likely to be different. Still, the stored oxygen and alactacid energy system will be dominant in both situations. Swimming practices have to train both race-specific surface swimming and underwater swimming so that the energy delivery differences become fully trained and suitable for races. Training the stored oxygen and alactacid energy system and use of oxygen to restore it does not occur in the absence of lactacid functioning (see below). The nature of the stimulating exercise will determine the degree of emphasis of use by the body for the two energy systems. When partial intense stored oxygen and alactacid activities occur in a short time (as in swimming racing), it is unlikely that maximum fatigue of this aspect of energy provision will be achieved. Very brief events and even more extended activities can be performed without maximum overload occurring.

 

In swimming, evidence exists that this phenomenon occurs in 200 m and shorter events and likely longer. Given the non-maximum nature of the overload in fast-component activities of brief duration, it is possible to very frequently repeat training stimuli that provoke adaptations in the muscles and circulation that will increase the ability of a swimmer to function with high-intensity for longer periods. The Slow-component of the Aerobic Energy System. A traditional interpretation of the role of oxygen in recovery is that elevated breathing is needed to repay anaerobic functioning of the exercise task (two common labels for this role are the "Accumulated Oxygen Debt - AOD", and the "Excess Post exercise Oxygen Consumption - EPOC").

 

Part of the total deficit is the fast-component which is largely discounted in theoretical interpretations and teaching of this topic. Of greater focus is the role of oxygen in recovery for removing lactate and re-establishing hormonal balances and the concomitant circulation restores body temperature from its usually elevated state. The greater the intensity and duration of the exercise, usually the greater is the amount of recovery excess-oxygen consumption. Depending upon the nature and extent of total-body exercise fatigue, recovery oxygen can remain elevated for more than four hours.

 

In partial-body and/or supported intense activities, the metabolites of exercise (circulating lactate, hydrogen ions, etc.) are resynthesized by the slow-component of the aerobic system mostly during the exercise particularly by the moderately exercising muscles not involved with intense force production. Thus, the degree of anaerobic functioning (the Type IIa fibers) in partial and supported sports such as swimming can be a lot more than estimated purely from post-exercise elevated oxygen consumption. The slow-component of aerobic kinetics serves a very different function to that provided by the fastcomponent. It becomes more obvious the longer the duration and the greater the intensity of the swimming task. The aerobic energy system performs four functions.

 

1. It is used to generate energy in the conversion of glycogen and fats to water and carbon dioxide at all times.

 

2. It stimulates some originally lactacid-functioning fibers to convert to oxidative functioning, which reduces the development of lactic acid in the "training effect" metabolic process.

 

3. It provides oxygen to restore the functioning of the stored oxygen and alactacid energy system during exercise and excessive exercise use post-exercise. Recovery after exercise is of prime importance to the body, hence the speed and priority of restoration. It is the fastcomponent of aerobic recovery functioning.

 

4. It provides oxygen to restore the functioning of the unconverted lactacid energy system (Type IIa fibers) during exercise and excessive exercise use post-exercise. The rate of recovery is slower than that displayed for the stored oxygen and alactacid energy system. It is the slow-component of aerobic recovery functioning. While "fast" and "slow" usually refer to post-activity recovery rates fostered by the aerobic energy system, the largely ignored within-exercise recovery function must be considered and its importance recognized in swimming.


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