Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

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Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:42 pm

Dear Folks,

I will participate in European Masters Swimming Championships on the 8th of September 2018 - Slovenia.
My event will be in BLED Lake 3K or 5K, I havent decided yet...

Official site: http://www.emc2018.com/sports/open-water-swimming

Until that time I will try to descend my current pool pace from 1:22/100m to 1:16/100m. During my workouts as a strategy I will focus on power more than the technique. I will find out a way to build a powerful stroke in the water by using some equipments such as weight belt.

I will share my daily workouts and sometimes some videos which may stimulate me and you.

Waiting for your precious comments.

Regards,
NC

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by Sprinter on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:56 pm

I also want to be there
http://theswimforum.palstani.com/t80-european-masters-swimming-championships-2018
but the events don't overlap, unfortunately.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:57 am

Sprinter wrote:I also want to be there
http://theswimforum.palstani.com/t80-european-masters-swimming-championships-2018
but the events don't overlap, unfortunately.

Great to hear that, I wish all my friends here join the championship. Events arte different but maybe we can come together in the city center Very Happy

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:01 am

15.08.2017 - Morning Session 6:20-7:20 - SCM 4000m

100m easy

Set1: 1500m crawl (20:47, pace:1:23)

100m easy

Set2: 1500m doggy paddle drill (23:01, pace:1:32)

100m easy

Set3: 20x25m int:22" (avg:18")

200m easy

Notes: I am starting from a better level in comparison to last year. Moreover, at this time last year I was smoking. Hope the following season will be better than the previous one. All I want to pull the 1:22 pace down to 1:16, hard but not impossible by adding some power training to my schedule.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:06 am


16.08.2017-Morning Session, 6:20-7:20, SCM 4000m

100m easy

Set1: 1500m crawl with paddles (21:03, pace:1:24)

100 easy

Set2: 1500m crawl doggy paddle drill (23:01, pace:1:32)

100m easy

Set3: 20*25m crawl R:3" (7:16)

200 easy

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by SA on Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:52 am

Power?

These ones, only cut all the surface away at the hands. Only surface near the elbows allowed,otherwise you will drop the elbows and not practice real swim power.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMGnYplei8A

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:15 pm

17.08.2017-Morning Session, 6:20-7:30, SCM 4000m

100m easy

Set1: 1500m crawl with paddles (20:26, pace:1:21)

100 easy

Set2: 1500m crawl doggy paddle drill (22:55, pace:1:32)

100m easy

Set3: 20*25m crawl R:3" (7:11)

200 easy

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:20 pm

18.08.2017-Lunch Time Session, 12:00-13:10, SCM 4000m

100m easy

Set1: 1500m crawl with paddles (19:55, pace:1:20)

100 easy

Set2: 1500m crawl doggy paddle drill with paddles (21:36, pace:1:26)

100m easy

Set3: 20*25m crawl int:22" (avg: 18")

200 easy
-----------------------
Today by swimming 19:55 I broke Turkish 40-44 age group's 1500m freesyle record(20:12) in the workout session, I swam with hand paddles and with a drag suit. With racing suit and without paddles I can swim the same time easily. 19:55 is still very poor, in this season my success criteria is 18:59. I will buy a wight belt or wear shorts having pockets and train with these to improve my power.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:38 pm

19.08.2017-Afternoon Session, 15:00-16:00 SCM 4000m

100m easy

Set1: 1500m crawl with paddles (19:32, pace:1:18)

100m easy

Set2: 1500m crawl with paddles (19:41, pace:1:19)

100m easy

Set3: 1000m easy kicking

100m easy
-----------------------
Today by swimming 19:32 I again broke Turkish 40-44 age group's 1500m freestyle record.  I swam with hand paddles and with a slip trunk. I broke my 20 min barrier, i think i ll sometime mess around with 19 minutes, looking forward to see 18s within 6 months.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by SA on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:00 am

If you are able to break 18 minutes this way I will throw away all the technique stuff and start training seriously.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by Sprinter on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:25 am

SA wrote:If you are able to break 18 minutes this way I will throw away all the technique stuff and start training seriously.

I think you and NC are not comparable: it seems intuitive to me that with "serious training" one might be able to improve on small technical flaws (with the proper attention), while bigger technical flaws will become more ingrained.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:11 am

SA and Sprinter,
Just one sentence i can say:
Power leads the technique.

When i m becoming powerful each week i m feeling more comfortable and fluent in the water because i can resist the drag easier. An analogy for this: if you put a 10 000 cc motor to Renault Megane it will beat Ferrari. People faster than me were not of better arm mechanics than me in Budapest Fina World Championships, but they were fitter and powerful.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by Sprinter on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:57 pm

nightcrawler wrote:SA and Sprinter,
Just one sentence i can say:
Power leads the technique.

I think this statement is meaningless in general: one can not distinguish in general between "power" and "technique" (since with "power" you do not mean, say,  "benchpressing"). There is no universal standard for "the technique". "Technique" is not "lady-like" (or "gentleman-like"), i.e., "no splashing" etc., but must relate to the concrete body of the swimmer, the goals, the current standard etc. You can not determine, in an absolute sense, what is "a better arm technique".

I guess more precise is to talk about "training effort". Then the question becomes, very roughly, how hard the training should be. Obviously, for many adult beginners, a hard training doesn't make much sense (swimming-wise). And the more the "technique" has been established, the more a hard training makes sense. But if you change your "technique", you must practise less hard (for some time).

If one would make a real data-collection over all adult swimmers (technically possible -- we should aim at that!), and you consider achieved speed (in some sense), then I believe one would see for the relative beginners, that slow "technique"-oriented training would win, for the medium swimmers it should be 50-50, and the more advanced you get, the more the "power" becomes the main distinguishing factor.

So I perfectly believe that for you, given that you do not want to make major changes in your stroke, "power" (in a sense, with endurance) is essential for winning the race. But for me and/or SA, I believe the question is more delicate. If we concentrate too soon on "power", then we will stall possibly the development of our stroke. (The car would simply fall apart.)

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:06 pm

20.08.2017-Morning Session, 8:20-9:20, SCM 4000m

100m easy

Set1: 1500m crawl with paddles (19:58, pace:1:20) (better than Turkish masters 40-44 age group record)

200 easy

Set2: 1500m crawl doggy paddle drill (22:31, pace:1:30)

100m easy

Set3: 20*25m crawl R:3" (7:02)

200 easy

Not: After returning from Bdapest World Masters there has become a significant improvement in my pace. I have sone estimations but will share these when i ll be sure.

----------
Sprinter, by the power i mean power in the water. Swimmers greatly likely faster than us habe better and sound swimming backround or special talent or working more and harder than us. Double your weekly distance in the water and your dry land, thensee what is happening, pace is mproving within a couple of months. I did this and it happened.

I increased my weekly distamce from25k to 35k, lost 8 kilos, did more dry land routine at home and pace improved from 1:24 to 1:18 in 3 months.

Whenyou get powerful you can raise your arms easier, sustain a better higher cadance stroke with the same DPS, become more flexible and longer in the water, have a lower HR and recover faster both in the workouts and for the following day, kick more efficient and faster, rotate  from side to side faster and better, pull harder and with higher elbow, breath better and more sneaky, do the tumble turns faster, etc. Power leads the technique. For swimming, power means flexibility, agility, sustainability. Someone who swims 25m free 13 seconds cant swim 200m free 2:00 is because of the lack of power(training). When you train more you also learn how to break the drag easiliy. There is nothing like TI says "swim less and cleverly but faster". Everything has a price, it is insane to expect remarkable results without swimming 30km a week unless you havent got special talents. Swim insane or remain the same Very Happy

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:46 pm

Moreover to say:
SA is trying to find out something to improve him easily, he is searching for a magic spirit by watching olympic swimmmers videos, all videos were engraved in our minds, so that i m not watching videos anymore:) But those swimmers all are not doing something speacial to swim faster, they are just training over 70km a week in the water and doing at least 2 hr dryland exercise.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by SA on Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:41 am

they obviously swim different than the swimmers I see usually in the pool. And their strokes are much more powerfull as well. I cant find any secrets anymore. Small things, but the rest is just keeping everything together longer and harder.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by SharkTank on Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:31 am

I just have some notes from my race today.

1. Yes technique, posture, flexibility is important. I had speed today. I could hang with the front. Satisfying revelation, that my stroke and technique is working. Felt smooth and fast.
2. And yes capacity, fitness, training is as vital an ingredient. I just didn't have the lungs to keep up. I notched it all back and pushed only what I felt was comfortable because it was a 1600+ meters. I could have gone 5000M at that pace but it's the fastest sustainable pace I can do. It's like say >400M tops, I have one speed that is possible at the moment. And it doesn't seem to be technique limited.

I need to do more lung buster stuff, which I kinda knew. Hope that makes sense.

And if you are going to OW race, you need to race OW or just race. I would be looking at every couple of months get in a race of some sort.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:46 am

21.08.2017 - Morning Session 6:30-7:30 - LCM 4000m

100m easy

Set1: 1500m crawl with paddles (21:18, pace:1:26) --->> This was 20 :00 in 25m pool (5 seconds per 100m worse in 50m pool)

100 easy

Set2: 1500m crawl doggy paddle drill (23:42, pace:1:35) --->> This was 22 :30 in 25m pool (5 seconds per 100m worse in 50m pool)

100m easy

Set3: 10*50m crawl R:5" (7:26) --->> This was 7:02 in 25m pool (5 seconds per 100m worse in 50m pool)

200 easy

Notes: I dont like t swim in 50m (LCM) pool but in line with Prof. Dr. Brent Rushall's advices today I decided to continue my training sessions in 50m pool.

Long course swimming is straight-up tougher. You don’t need me to tell you that.

Yes today I saw that Prof. Dr. Brent Rushall is right; if you have aspirations of competing at the elite level of the sport at some point, you will be racing in the long pool.

In comparison to 25m(SCM) pool I am loosing at least 1-1.5 seconds per 25m (4-6 seconds per 100m) in 50m pool. Long course is different, and requires different strategy. Simply put, long course is slower. For swimmers new to the sport there is a moment of surprise when they come to understand that a 20 seconds short course swim per 25m doesn’t instantly transfer over to a 0:40 per 50m second-long course result. In a long course pool there is quite literally more swimming to be done.

Conclusion: Swimming in a 50m pool makes your pace at least 7-8% slower (i.e instead of 1:20, you swim 1:26) and for those who have stronger underwater kicks and better psuh-offs this may be 10%. Unless the 50m pool is not closed due to water polo matches I will be doing my workouts in 50m pool and try to transfer my SCM pace to LCM.


Here are some differences between the short and long course:
- Short courses have an extra turn
- There is an increased speed after each turn
- There is a period of inactivity after each turn
- The period of inactivity lowers the heart rate of the swimmer

I can say that there is 7 seconds difference between 100 meters and yards. I have not thought about this in the last few years so today I went and looked it up and it seems to be correct. Actually, mens' 100 yard freestyle American record is :41.62 and the 100 meter freestyle is :48.33. It seems to hold true. The 50 M is 21.76 and 50Y 19.05.

I would stick with 3.5 seconds slower per 50M.
7 seconds per 100... etc etc


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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:08 am

22.08.2017 - Morning Session 6:30-7:30 - LCM 4000m

100m easy

Set1: 1500m crawl with paddles (21:36, pace:1:26)

100 easy

Set2: 1500m crawl doggy paddle drill (23:58, pace:1:36)

100m easy

Set3: 10*50m crawl R:5" (7:27)

200 easy

Not: 50m pool paces are 5 seconds worse than that of 25m pool.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by cottmiler on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:10 am

Which version of doggy paddle do you do use?

Can you post a clip of it please?

It might be useful for my student.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:24 pm

I am doing modified doggy paddle with full stroke.
Full pull and push through with only wrists inside the water.

You may watch the the 3rd 25m of the video(from 40sec to 1:01)
https://youtu.be/OWLcH_MacbM

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:13 am

23.08.2017 - Morning Session 6:30-7:30 - LCM 4000m

100m easy

Set1: 1500m crawl with paddles (20:11, pace:1:21) *** !!! I ACHIEVED !!!***

100 easy

Set2: 1500m crawl doggy paddle drill (22:47, pace:1:31)

100m easy

Set3: 10*50m crawl R:5" (7:10)

200 easy

Notes:
Finally, today I achieved my 25m pool paces in 50m pool. Everything will be better from now on Very Happy


Last edited by nightcrawler on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by cottmiler on Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:15 am

Doggy Paddle?

NC, I think your version is "hand drag", but what does it achieve?

Doggy Paddle has recovery completely under water.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by SA on Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:44 am

I also like this arm dragging a lot. It takes your recovery pretty wide and lets you drag the arm with the shoulder and the elbow. takes the hand and forearm out of the action for a while.
It also connects the roll to the extension if you time it right, dropping and rolling the high side in, and makes you aware of the entering position of the hand and sets you up properly for the underaterphase.
Thats a lot of things.

After this I think its a good idea to reach over an imaginary fence with the recovering arm with the same underlying action as the dragging arm drill, but now throwing that high side arm over higher and further forward, but still ending about  the same underwater endpoint, only a few inches further upfront. Trying to reach to some extra amount of water to pull/grab. Thats like reaching for a high anchor point in rock climbing.
Digging in from there and twisting past it.

For most people that tend to scoop up to the surface after entry. Having the arms never totally straightened out, but keeping them angled like this (ideally a bit less than this) is a good starting point. This, together with  reaching forward with the armpit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7p0esInFs0

You can progress in 3 stages to more loading of the catch.
1 normal doggypaddle, all bodyparts underwater. No above water weight to handle.
2 Nightcrawler hand drag drill. Almost normal stroke, but not as tiring to lift the arm up and over.
3 taormina over the water recovery drill. more lifting and stretching involved. Most loading of the catch. most core action needed to keep straight during thransfer of forces between high and low side.

Moment in stroke where catch is about maximally loaded. Max weight on it when low side arm is 45-60 degrees pointing down.first the weight, then taking over with pulling.


Last edited by SA on Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:18 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to European Masters Swimming Championships (Slovenia)

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:05 pm

cottmiler wrote:Doggy Paddle?

NC, I think your version is "hand drag",  but what does it achieve?

Doggy Paddle has recovery completely under water.  

SA has aleady explained it is benefits.
Moreover I can add that this drill also makes you aware of your horizontal level on the water, helps to correct head position, sinking hips, toes and hamstrings, makes you concentrate on longer forward extension and far catch in line with the shoulder. It is also a very good sculling exercises since the and and elbow drives forward 5-10cm below the water level.

Actually mine is not a pure hand drag drill, sometimes I deep the whole arm into the water in order to check its effect on body position, a bit tricky and beneficial exercises to test the body balance (horizontal balance and side balance as SA explained).


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