Forearm Paddles?

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Forearm Paddles?

Post by cottmiler on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:58 am

I have,nt ever tried using forearm paddles. Has anyone here done so?

What about Finis Forearm Fulcrum paddles?

I imagine that they could be very useful. More so than hand paddles.

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by Sprinter on Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:14 am

I have the Finis Forearm Fulcrum paddles, but they don't feel right; other's have made the same experience. Holger Luening created his own version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHP3RHUH_rI

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by cottmiler on Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:21 am

Danke, Ich verstehe sehr gut.

Vielleicht Ich diesen mache konnen?

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by Sprinter on Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:22 pm

cottmiler wrote:Danke, Ich verstehe sehr gut.

Vielleicht Ich diesen mache konnen?
Sure, buy it at http://www.rev-paddles.de/ (hopefully they do "international").

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by SharkTank on Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:16 am

Spent quite a bit of time on these. Pretty cool. I think they really help to re-shape your pull vis a vis your body movement & rotation...

https://youtu.be/k0fW8s81fmI

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by cottmiler on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:43 am

Those are excellent!

I must remember to look in a nearby rubbish skip for some double glazing plastic offcuts and make a pair.

Have you tried using just one on it's own?


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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by SharkTank on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:49 am

1/4" HDPE Quadrant plastics, slight negative but ~neutral buoyancy, marine grade 3/16" (?) bungie with cord locks.

No never tried just one. Really strange to swim with, slow/no propulsion at first.

After a few days on them I was back to a reasonable pace and much cleaner pull mechanics overall.

I could feel them changing my stroke as my shoulders/armpits were getting a stretch etc.

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Finis Fulcrums!

Post by cottmiler on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:04 am

I finally decided to get these and today was able to try them for a few laps.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOpKSTZYlrI

I think they are fantastic! I had no trouble doing crawl, breast stroke and even backstroke.

Regarding the crawl, I felt that they helped synchronise all body movements correctly. Also, one problem has always been that when I use a straight arm recovery like Shelley Taylor-Smith, I wasn’t getting the best catch under water. Smootharnie once mentioned this. I believe the FFs will help solve this.

Tomorrow it’s Bregor’s turn. They are supposed to be good for beginners.

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by Don Wright on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:41 am

Ah, yet more gizmos/"toys" - the manufacturers must love us - all apparently to remedy what "SS forum veterans" should have assimilated yonks ago, and never forgotten. Viz the most effective action for any "would-be" propulsive limb movement (e.g. hand/forearm) has to be such that for most of the movement, the direction of any applied force needs to exceed 45 degrees degrees below the surface, in order to be claimed as backward-facing,  hence the high elbow catch/EVF etc,.  Is there now, a general lack of concentration/body awareness in ensuring a backward-facing direction for the most flexible limb parts while pulling?

The action of legs/feet in FS is much more restricted in achieving a backward-facing attitude, even for a brief instant - the flexible ankles/feet (if you are fortunate!) can certainly do this at the transition from flutter kick upbeat to downbeat, with the insteps bending back a bit under water pressure on the kick down. (Sheila Taormina in her book "Swim Speed Strokes" includes photos of some elites having a moderate amount of knee bend at the transition from flutter kick upbeat to downbeat - in order presumably to use the frontal area of the shin to apply a more backward-facing component on the kick downbeat, than can be achieved by straight leg flutter kicking.  We can also see this same "use of the frontal shin area" in the final part of the fly major kick downbeat because of the moderate knee band, as the lower legs/feet flick down!)

In back crawl, we know that after the (supposedly gentle) down-sweep to a catch - we need to simultaneously, roll towards the stroking arm to get it at a more effective depth (i.e. not just a little way below the surface) and bend the elbow so as to present hand/forearm in a backward-facing direction.  The body roll towards the now deeper stroking arm, brings the hand a bit nearer to the central axis for a more effective pull. BTW do any of us use the double phase arm action as described for back crawl in Maglischo's old tome - with its double in-sweeps/up-sweeps, tracing out a sort of butterfly wing shape when viewed from above? I tried this for a while, a long time ago, until arthritic problems in continually changing the orientation of the wrist/hands became too painful - so back to a simple single in-sweep/up-sweep for the stroking arm's pull.


The same principle of aiming to get the forearms/hands in a backward-facing direction at the catch, applies  to fly and breast stroke - as "cott..."s video clip shows.


Last edited by Don Wright on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by Sprinter on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:54 am

Don Wright wrote:(Sheila Taormina in her book "Swim Speed Strokes" includes photos of some elites having a moderate amount of knee bend at the transition from flutter kick upbeat to downbeat - in order presumably to use the frontal area of the shin to apply a more backward-facing component than can be achieved by straight leg flutter kicking.)

The elite swimmers *can* do the bending without compromising the stroke (we can't). It is about more power, but to the best of my knowledge has absolutely nothing to do with the shin! It is about more speed for the feet, and thus some opt for getting the feet higher out of the water, to smash them down harder (due to the stronger acceleration, without water resistance). But the shine I believe have nothing to do with that.

It's all about the feet.

Those with a very strong, propulsive kick need also to bring down the straight leg deeper -- the legs can't produce strong propulsion if just staying in the shadow of the body.

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by Don Wright on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:09 pm

Sprinter wrote:
Don Wright wrote:(Sheila Taormina in her book "Swim Speed Strokes" includes photos of some elites having a moderate amount of knee bend at the transition from flutter kick upbeat to downbeat - in order presumably to use the frontal area of the shin to apply a more backward-facing component than can be achieved by straight leg flutter kicking.)

The elite swimmers *can* do the bending without compromising the stroke (we can't). It is about more power, but to the best of my knowledge has absolutely nothing to do with the shin! It is about more speed for the feet, and thus some opt for getting the feet higher out of the water, to smash them down harder (due to the stronger acceleration, without water resistance). But the shine I believe have nothing to do with that.

It's all about the feet.

Those with a very strong, propulsive kick need also to bring down the straight leg deeper -- the legs can't produce strong propulsion if just staying in the shadow of the body.

Hi "Sprinter"!

Yes I've seen some stuff about it being easier/quicker/more effective to smash the feet down into the "boiling froth" of air bubbles in water, caused by feet coming up above the surface during fast flutter kicking .  Hmmm! - I won't be trying that! Smile

There is also the business of how a lot of elites seem to minimize the amount the flutter kicking legs come in front of the torso line. It seems to me, that there is more knee bending done in the flutter kick upbeats - with the legs coming well behind the torso line (45-60 degree knee bends e.g. as in Jason Lezak's style!).  Could that be a case of trying to bring the frontal area of the shin more backward-facing for the kick downbeats - but I do admit those cases I have seen, do also produce a lot of surface "boiling froth" with the feet coming above the surface - (because of the big knee bends behind the torso line bringing the feet up high?).

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by Sprinter on Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:26 pm

Don Wright wrote:
Yes I've seen some stuff about it being easier/quicker/more effective to smash the feet down into the "boiling froth" of air bubbles in water, caused by feet coming up above the surface during fast flutter kicking .  Hmmm! - I won't be trying that! Smile

There is also the business of how a lot of elites seem to minimize the amount the flutter kicking legs come in front of the torso line. It seems to me, that there is more knee bending done in the flutter kick upbeats - with the legs coming well behind the torso line (45-60 degree knee bends e.g. as in Jason Lezak's style!).  Could that be a case of trying to bring the frontal area of the shin more backward-facing for the kick downbeats - but I do admit those cases I have seen, do also produce a lot of surface "boiling froth" with the feet coming above the surface - (because of the big knee bends behind the torso line bringing the feet up high?).

Hi Don,

I believe the issue about "boiling water" is rather irrelevant, especially for non-professionals. Some adults have a very lame kick, perhaps also very low, and then it might help to think about "boiling water", but otherwise it is not a target. The professional sprinters might do it or not, but for most of us our swimming frequency is too low to come near that.

What seems to me the worst a non-professional (adult learner) can do is to think about any kind of "knee bend". The bending in the hip destroys the kick (and the whole stroke), and only professionals can avoid that while doing a knee-bend. STRAIGHT LEGS is likely the leading slogan for several years of learning the proper flutter kick, kicking nearly exclusively from the hips.

A beautiful video, showing (also) a lot of good (strong) kicking action is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOGeWc5lzdc
for example the sequence starting around 1:18. The most important part of the kick is the explosive down kick.

Many swimming-videos concentrate on some minor detail, for the professional to make a small difference. For example concerning the kick the "up-kick" is emphasised -- but in my own experience and from observation, we adult learners should worry MUCH more about the down kick, we don't get that right!
It's about the basics: the beginner needs to learn the statics of swimmer, and then comes the dynamics, the power projection. Most of us in the forum will get the power projection wrong, and that's where the focus should be, in the BASICS of the power projections (the rest are minor details). Thinking about a knee-bend one jumps immediately to a very advanced level of kicking, which is very destructive I believe.

I was concentrating the last 3 months say especially on the down-kick (with straight legs). Kicking with the snorkel and with 6-beat frequency for 66 strokes per minute I am doing now, after warming up and relaxing(!) the kick, consistently 23-25 sec / 25 m. This is for me a good step forward. The phase, were I went most of all for a fast kick, is over (for now) -- likely necessary for the development, but it produced a kind of superficial kick (not strong, wasteful, and basically impossible to integrate into the normal stroke).

As you can see with the above video, the sprinter has a slight upward angle in the water! This was also said some time ago in a video about a female sprinter (what the coach wanted to see). The reason is that for strong propulsion the feet need to hit standing water, thus need to leave the shadow. While the non-sprinter will be more horizontal, will hide the feet.

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Re: Forearm Paddles?

Post by cottmiler on Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:05 am

Getting back to forearms rather than feet, I've been able to do a bit more with the Finis Fulcrums. Illness has recently kept me away from the pool so visits have been sparse.

I believe that they help with getting the right body roll. The body has to move out of the way of the crooked arm and the action reminds me of swimming with fists.

I think the FFs are better since there is no chance of the arm taking an easier less efficient path.

Unco and Dunco are good and the straight arm recovery is somehow becoming more natural with a better pull under water.

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