Shelley Ripple vs Karlyn Pipes Neilson

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Shelley Ripple vs Karlyn Pipes Neilson

Post by cottmiler on Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:43 am

If one watches Shelley for the first few minutes:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=105s&v=Cb1Supmb2TQ

And compare with Karlyn :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4FKpGr0FM

I see very different timing going on.

Shelley seems to start the catch while the rear hand is still pushing, Kayak style whilst Karlyn has ¾ Catchup.

I'm wondering what to do with this observation.



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Re: Shelley Ripple vs Karlyn Pipes Neilson

Post by Don Wright on Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:44 am

cottmiler wrote:If one  watches Shelley for the first few minutes:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=105s&v=Cb1Supmb2TQ

And compare with Karlyn :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4FKpGr0FM

I see very different timing going on.

Shelley seems to start the catch while the rear hand is still pushing, Kayak style whilst Karlyn has ¾ Catchup.

I'm wondering what to do with this observation.


  Why not "for variety" spend a bit of swim time using both good ideas! I've built up a little "repertoire" of some 7 different FS styles - spending time on each - the only trouble is having finished one "variant" I have to pause to recollect which one comes next in my little list - the memory ain't so good now!  Rolling Eyes

I prefer Shelley's arm action, 'cos IMO it is nearer to the "supposed" optimum arm action, viz: as soon as the stroking arm finishes it's work, the lead arm should be ready to start it's work.  The problem is that this can soon become quite tiring on the arms - unless one learns to grab as much muscular rest as possible during the more gentle/slower down-sweep to a catch. There is also a possible problem of conflict in the slightly contrary directions of water flow beneath the body, if the lead arm is pulling while the rear arm is still pushing! (*)  However Shelley's timing seems OK 'cos the lead arm is not exerting force on it's way down to the catch and meanwhile the rear arm is finishing it's up-sweep. So, I really like the idea of dropping the lead arm down to the catch at, or very near, the time of the rear arm's exit for recovery!

What more can be said about Karlyn's characteristic style? - she really believes in the value of a good glide during a significant part of her "catch-up" arm action!  Maybe SS were too dismissive of a short glide - 'cos it is during that time that the body is in a good stream-lined attitude and the moment the lead arm starts to "drop" down to a catch, the body is driving an increasing water wedge forwards, above that arm, until it's in a position to apply useful effort. 

(An interesting, and partly relevant, study was done into the "pros and cons" of elite swimmers pushing off from the wall in an initially stream-lined attitude, and then starting "dolphin waggles" to compensate for the gradual loss of momentum forwards as the impulse from the leg push waned - and their bodies were still below the surface, but getting ready for their first strokes.  The study found - if I remember rightly - that most of the swimmers started their "waggles" too soon, and it would have been more efficient to maintain their stream-lined attitude for a short while longer than they were accustomed to doing.)

( *   To my knowledge, I don't think the "swim-hydrodynamics" chaps have  done any work on this business - If you know otherwise, do please tell me!!!  As with most things "more of something doesn't necessarily lead to an increase in the hoped for end-product".  From my earlier little experiments with this, it seemed to me that when I arranged the arm disposition so that after the lead arm catch, with about a 60 degree angle between pulling/pushing arms midway through the UW stroke paths - there seemed to be a disturbance in the water flow, which I suppose was  due to the eddies coming off of both moving arms, "meeting up" and making the flow a bit chaotic.  The resulting rate of forward movement was not as much as I had hoped for!  I did try other arm dispositions with both arms simultaneously UW at some stage in the stroke cycle - but eventually settled on having the rear arm finishing it's up-sweep just as the lead arm was at the catch.  If you think about the idea of "layers of stream-surfaces" surrounding a pulling arm, meeting up with the "layers" surrounding the other simultaneously pushing arm - there is bound to be some "conflict" as the flow is deflected first one way, and then another, because the arms are not acting at the same distance from/side of,  the central axis.)


Last edited by Don Wright on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:52 am; edited 11 times in total

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Re: Shelley Ripple vs Karlyn Pipes Neilson

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:15 am

cottmiler wrote:If one  watches Shelley for the first few minutes:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=105s&v=Cb1Supmb2TQ

And compare with Karlyn :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4FKpGr0FM

I see very different timing going on.

Shelley seems to start the catch while the rear hand is still pushing, Kayak style whilst Karlyn has ¾ Catchup.

I'm wondering what to do with this observation.


Once i had asked the right timing to Turkish 6 time olympic swimmwr Derya Buyukuncu after he watched me in the pool, he replied that timing was not a big matter to think about a lot and added that when i swim more my body would find the proper timing.

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