Combining strength training and swim training

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Combining strength training and swim training

Post by Sprinter on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:47 pm

Combining strength training with swim training is not such an easy thing: for 1-2 days after strength training, swimming is hampered.

Sore muscles in the upper body seem especially problematic for swimming: the stretch is hindered, and the movements are not relaxed. And likely especially for a strong kick, if the legs are sore, then they don't want to work hard, and the quickness is gone.

Definitely for sprinting on the one hand you need strength, which is diminished with sore muscles, and the strength must be also delivered in a relaxed way, which is hardly possible with muscle soreness. For the pull one might think there should still be enough strength left, since swimming is not a maximum-strength sport, but perhaps the smaller muscles give up earlier -- I typically get the feeling that the strong pull is just gone.

For me with sprinting sets the difference seems to be 10-15% in speed.

So well, perhaps that's how it is. In general I think strength training is valuable (especially if you are getting older). And in particular for sprinting it is also important for swimming. Thus perhaps one just has to hope that over time these effects diminishes.

Perhaps I should take more massages? I already try to stretch a lot.

Sure, one can swim slower. But then there's the danger of a degenerating stroke. I try to control this as good as I can.

Any thoughts on this?

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by Sprinter on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:56 pm

Compared to the thread http://theswimforum.palstani.com/t11-dry-land-skills
with strength training I mean more weight training, aiming at increasing maximum-strength. It seems the more endurance-based dry-land training is less problematic: besides the tiredness, the heavy soreness after heavy weight-training doesn't occur so often. But this heavy soreness is also a sign of good progress.

What can be problematic with the non-max dry-land training is heavy abs-training: the tumble-turns become really ugly. But otherwise one can endure it, and it doesn't seem to hamper as much as a sore upper body (at least for (relatively Wink ) fast swimming).

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by Adivio on Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:22 am

I feel your pain, Sprinter! Almost all my swims are affected by the weight training.
And to add to the insult, as I am a triathlete, I usually run or cycle in the same day. So
I can say that I'm never 100% rested for the swim, on the contrary. That's why I use the
kick pants half the training sessions to reduce a bit from the load.

I know that I would advance much more and much faster if I just focused on swimming but this is now what I want to do so I guess I am then fine Smile.


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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:09 pm

Sprinter wrote:Compared to the thread http://theswimforum.palstani.com/t11-dry-land-skills
with strength training I mean more weight training, aiming at increasing maximum-strength. It seems the more endurance-based dry-land training is less problematic: besides the tiredness, the heavy soreness after heavy weight-training doesn't occur so often. But this heavy soreness is also a sign of good progress.

What can be problematic with the non-max dry-land training is heavy abs-training: the tumble-turns become really ugly. But otherwise one can endure it, and it doesn't seem to hamper as much as a sore upper body (at least for (relatively Wink ) fast swimming).
manmakers combine aerobic condition develpment with explosive power developement, it is harder and effective than 100 push ups. I explained it in the below thread, hope that makes it more clear for you:
http://theswimforum.palstani.com/t11-dry-land-skills#319

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by Sprinter on Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:42 pm

Thanks for the man-makers! Nice exercise.

But I believe you also need max-power exercises in the mix: they seem to provide the strongest impulses.
Also isolation-exercises have their place, as preparation and for strong growth-impulses.

The direction of the man-makers is put to an extreme with CrossFit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrossFit
It seems to create good results, but I consider it too dangerous, for somebody like me, over 50, with a history of joint-problems.

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:06 am

Hi Sprinter,

Squat is the exercise that I also dont love to do, it really hurts the knees if it is done upto 100 times.

In order to protect the joints you can do the manmakers with a little weight such as 4-5kg also without squatting, you can bend down through the easy climbing position one leg back other leg pulled to the abs (http://guzellikbulvari.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Mountain_Climbers2.png) and in this position also you can also do the lat pull phase of the manmaker. Manmakers are great for cardio and power development at the same time. Isolation exercises not good for swimming bacause you cant work the collateral muscles effectively.

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by Sprinter on Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:40 pm

nightcrawler wrote:
Squat is the exercise that I also dont love to do, it really hurts the knees if it is done upto 100 times.
I go "naturally" for the higher weights, less reps, so the squats seem okay.

nightcrawler wrote:
Isolation exercises not good for swimming because you cant work the collateral muscles effectively.
I think that's somewhat exaggerated:
- You can use the isolation exercises for building up strength, and then forming them with the sport-specific training, especially under conditions like injuries etc.
- Triceps extension is also rather close to swimming, and so helps directly.
- And I believe (isolated!) rotator cuff exercises are very important.
So they have their uses.

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:44 pm

You talkng about muscle soreness while swimming, then use lighter weights and do less repetitions, put more cardio in your program. Actually swimming needs stationary dry land exercises, may try to learn about it. If you dont have time for the gym also make stretch cord or theraband exercises and calisthetics at home. Whatever you do should be swim specific.
https://youtu.be/k8uoCImFc40
https://youtu.be/ixUWaO1bGZE

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by SA on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:17 am

This seems a good dril to me. Strenght and connection training, but in the water.

http://www.yourswimlog.com/brute-strength-power-up-your-freestyle-with-the-zona-drill/#

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by Sprinter on Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:38 pm

SA wrote:This seems a good dril to me. Strenght and connection training, but in the water.

http://www.yourswimlog.com/brute-strength-power-up-your-freestyle-with-the-zona-drill/#

Looks nice -- but where to get a weight belt??
Internet search only found
http://www.swimsmarttoday.com/products/nylon-belt
which looks alright, but they don't deliver to the UK.
I assume/guess/hope that such a specialised product is more suitable than just a diving belt?

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:45 pm

I am using an old bag's strap santa
Something like below:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiPm5ac0KjRAhVJxlQKHeqzDLEQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gokart.co.uk%2Fshop%2Ftop-bag-strap.html&psig=AFQjCNH780dGFd0jsyzQsyJsSMmRUVerhg&ust=1483623991983591

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Re: Combining strength training and swim training

Post by Sprinter on Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:07 pm

I see, I have to improvise (was hoping for a highly specialised product, with centuries of experience behind it -- so that I would fly through the water Wink ).
I actually have an old diver's belt, with two 3 lb weights, I guess I try that. (The weights feel heavy -- I guess I already anticipate being nailed to the ground by them Crying or Very sad .)

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