Does anyone use "passing the elbow" in FS?

Go down

Does anyone use "passing the elbow" in FS?

Post by Don Wright on Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:40 am

Having "muttered" about the use of "the arm action of the topic" in fly stroke, and remembering I was told yonks ago that it was an option for FS-ers, and there was a suggestion that some "Swingers" used the technique. I never did get a response when quizzing other members on the old SS forum about it.  Have never seen any clips of elites using the technique - which "pinches" some of the path length of the FS pull phase, in order to add it to the path length of the push phase.  It means for instance, doing an EVF catch and pulling the stroking arm back  (with hand being brought a bit nearer the centre line because of elbow bend) - then as the elbow comes level with the hip, letting the hand lag a bit - in front of, but beneath the level of the elbow (definitely not as dramatic as in the fly stroke transition from in-sweep to up-sweep).  The push phase starts from this "earlier than normal" position - and may be a bit more more powerful than a normal FS up-sweep because of the longer path to be traversed.

I seem to be able to exert more push during my arm action (particularly on my non-breathing side ) when I concentrate on flinging the stroking arm back/up.  But maybe some FS-ers have got a stronger pull than push!  (The "Flinging up-sweep" idea is from one of the points I noted from a very old DVD of ex-Olympic sprinter Tom Jager coaching on FS!)

Don Wright

Posts : 115
Join date : 2017-07-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Does anyone use "passing the elbow" in FS?

Post by Don Wright on Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:47 am

I tried some 4 lengths of it yesterday, and it seemed an improvement on my usual FS arm up-sweep!

I think it's an unfortunate name for the "idea" - a "Planned Dropped Elbow" or PDE would seem better IMO.  For let's not "mince words" - it is really dropping the elbow in order to achieve some subsequent advantage!

My "prelim" efforts using PDEs, brought into focus the fact that we do not want to loose any of the propulsion gained from a good "pull phase" of the arm stroke.  So this meant that the PDE had to be a sudden transition towards the end of the FS in-sweep - (which IMC is just a pull back after my EVF catch, forearm/hand deep) - to the FS up-sweep.  On each arm stroke, I waited until the elbow of the stroking arm was nearly at my ribs, then let the hand lag the movement of the elbow, and suddenly "dropping" the elbow on a quick downward/backward curve that brought my upper arm closer to the rib cage, but with forearm and hand extended out in front, at an angle of probably 60 degrees below the surface. Then doing the "longer than normal" arm up-sweep "with great gusto" Wink - as Tom Jager recommended on an old DVD.

Last night, I "consulted the oracle" (viz Maglischo's "Swimming Fastest" which although old and out-dated in some respects, is still incomparable in it's detail with any other contemporary info known to me!).  He includes in his comments on the FS up-sweep : -

"The upsweep is the second and final propulsive sweep of the front crawl stroke. It is the most propulsive phase of the armstroke. Most swimmers reach peak forward velocity for each armstroke near the end of the upsweep....The palm of the hand and the underside of the forearm are used as a paddle to push back against the water during the upsweep...The arm may extend slightly during the upsweep to maintain pressure against the backward-moving water, but it should never extend so much that the forearm is pushing up, rather than back, against the water."

On the same page as the above comments (p112) is an illustration of front/side views of the FS upsweep.  In this, at the start of the PDE it shows the forearm/hand some 60 degrees below the surface level, and the upper arm not quite in line with the ribs.  An instant later, the illustrations shows the upper arm almost level with the back and the forearm/hand pushing strongly back - the rest of the upsweep is done with just the forearm/hand.

By comparison - the PDE for fly stroke in preparation for the upsweep, is a bit more "dramatic" in that the upper arms are only just past the vertical and the forearms/hands are some 45 degrees below the surface (so this means the fingers are probably beneath the neck or head).  In this stroke a greater uplift is required to get the head above the surface for a quick inhalation.  FS-ers have it easy - an appropriate roll of the body and turn of the neck makes inhalation an easier matter for them!

Don Wright

Posts : 115
Join date : 2017-07-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Does anyone use "passing the elbow" in FS?

Post by Don Wright on Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:21 am

Am still "agonizing" over this issue!   Rolling Eyes  We already have a lot to think about - being stream-lined at the front, as an arm makes water entry (and possibly rolling towards that arm), not pressing down on the water as it goes deeper down to a catch, then at last into the pull phase.  To cut short the latter, in order to do a PDE seems clumsy and inefficient - so maybe that's why there seems a lack of bods using the technique - and it probably requires a combination with other factors - (such as the sudden body roll away from the up-coming arm, then stretching to get a stream-lined "long body" shape, as one tries to maximize the distance between the lead arm hand and the stroking arm hand) -  to make it a viable alternative to our usual arm action.

I certainly don't think it's some great thing that has been overlooked before! Laughing

However, I re-played the relevant section of "Ye Olde" DVD (dating back to 2004) of Tom Jager giving FS coaching.  In the section on what he calls the "3-2-1" drill, he emphasizes stream-lining and getting a good DPS.  On each of 3 lengths with bods flutter kicking and a lead arms outstretched and others by the side (stream-lined and stretching out  with lead arm "to reach the light bulb" as he says - which involves shoulder/hip roll to reach further ahead). Then on the first length, counting off a 3 second pause before doing an arm stroke.  On the next length the count is reduced to a 2 second pause, then on the last length just a single second pause before starting the arm stroke. He encourages his squad to "explode" the arm back/up from about the "belly button to the middle of the thigh" (so he says!).

While he was demonstrating from the pool deck, what he wanted his young squad to do, and doing the arm action - I couldn't help noticing he did an (inadvertent?) PDE before simulating an arm up-sweep! At other places on the DVD when he was doing a demo in the water, I tried SLO-MO viewing of his arm action, and it was awkward to decide because of the camera angle - but am fairly confident that he does use a PDE as he "explodes" his arm back/up during the up-sweep. He tells the squad to try and deposit as much water as they can on the pool side deck while doing the up-sweep!   Smile  From the pool deck he really demo-ed/emphasized the stretch of the lead and rear arms almost in their streamline attitude at the end of the rear arm up-sweep - he said it was like "cross-country (ski-ing???) arm action"!? I suppose he meant the action of using ski poles, reaching far forwards with each arm in turn to help draw oneself forwards (rarely see more than about 4" of snow in my locality, so not familiar with ski-ing terms, prefer somewhere warmer for a holiday!)

Don Wright

Posts : 115
Join date : 2017-07-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Does anyone use "passing the elbow" in FS?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum