High Cadence Project

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High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:11 am

Thanks to sprinter for giving me a kick up the rear and encouraging me to work hard in the pool for a change.

I have now done 3.15 km over 5 sessions at 75 spm over single laps with bilateral breathing.

When I did my 100km projects on ankle band and water polo it seemed to take about 20 km before a definite breakthrough happened.

Today I noticed that things felt better and the body felt more on top of the water and streamlined. I had improved the head turn to the right rather than lifting it. Reducing the two beat leg kick amplitude must help too.


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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:19 am

cottmiler wrote:Thanks to sprinter for giving me a kick up the rear and encouraging me to work hard in the pool for a change.

I have now done 3.15 km over 5 sessions at 75 spm over single laps with bilateral breathing.

When I did my 100km projects on ankle band and water polo it seemed to take about 20 km before a definite breakthrough happened.

Today I noticed that things felt better and the body felt more on top of the water and streamlined.  I had improved the head turn to the right rather than lifting it.  Reducing the two beat leg kick amplitude must help too.


75 SPM is quite good for an open water swimmer, I am trying 80SPM, at the moment I can sustain 76 SPM upto 5km. When we take a llook at the elites, we can sww that they can manage to sustain 90 SPM upto 5K.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4gJ77Ou9nI&t=1687s

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:00 am

Tighten your hip, torso, abdominals, quadriceps, toes and just focu on the whole body balan by incresing the strokes per minute.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:08 am

It's certainly quite exhilarating to rattle along at higher cadence!

Having completed 5 km at 75 spm, I moved the timer up to 80 spm and started the next phase of 600 m.

It needs everything to be neat and tidy as nightcrawler says, because swimming at lower cadence makes the body lazy and it is so easy to rely mostly on right arm power.

The action needs to be completely symmetrical with no left side inefficiencies.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by Sprinter on Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:27 am

Hi,

great that you discovered the rejuvenating power of higher stroke rates. There is something refreshing about them.

Since my last swim camp, 75 strokes/min (that is, 0.8s / stroke) is my minimum stroke rate. I stopped doing shoulder extension (and the accompanying hip rotation), due to being uncontrollable for me. Got faster in this way, and it feels better.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:25 am

It's interesting that Jono Van Hazel can do 94 spm despite being a tall person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs

Also he doesn't use a straight arm recovery unlike many high cadence swimmers, for example Laura Manadou, Janet Evans.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:21 am

5 km of 80 spm swimming has now been completed.

A start has been made on 82 spm.

There are three ways of using the bleeper and they are 1) hand dip on bleep, 2) touch thumb on thigh on bleep and 3) foot downbeat on bleep (two beat kick).

All of these need to be competently achievable.

When I first get in the pool the stroke is a bit rough and ragged, spinning the wheels, but after progressing from 1) to 2) the whole action seems smoother.

The accuracy of the stroke will be poor if you have a dominant arm and I have to tell my left arm that it is the dominant one and things improve.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by SA on Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:30 am

Glad that someone keeps this forum alive Cottmiler. Keep those experiments coming!

Havent swum much the last year, but getting into the mood again for some reason.
Experimenting with sort of nightcrawler style, but with a lope in it.
Cant get to high strokerates. Reach and traction are always high on my priority list, so with good DPS, high strokerate equals fast swimming , equals high energetic cost,... means....... problem :-)

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:42 am

Good to hear from you SA!

I have done 2770 m at 82 spm and still developing/discovering correct action.

A couple of things have happened recently. One is that a stronger, timed foot kick down is needed to switch tracks and this is because I've enjoyed using some short fins lately which have helped.

The second thing is that I have needed to shorten the stroke slightly at exit like Karlyn P.N advocates.

Although I am swimming much faster than anyone else in my lane of up to 6 people, it still takes me ages to get though my quota as I have to wait and give people a half lap start!

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by SA on Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:02 am

yeah, you got to connect that opposite leg to the throwing arm. Firms up your core too if you do that.
The key is finding the right rhythm. Timing is everything.
Great fun, but hard to sustain for old folks. You must catch super early or slip a ton of water doing 82 strokes min, or are you also swimming fast? :-)

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:15 am

I haven't timed it because that would be demotivating.  

I did sweet spot trials a couple of years ago and 75 spm turned out best.

Doing fewer laps at a furious cadence is doubtless doing me some good aerobically anyway despite some slippage.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by Sprinter on Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:23 pm

[quote="cottmiler"]I haven't timed it because that would be demotivating.

Doing fewer laps at a furious cadence is doubtless doing me some good aerobically anyway despite some slippage.[/quote]

Compared to pulling hard, I guess that a higher cadence is more healthy: less stress on the joints, and curbing the metabolism.

Perhaps it is a good thing to first concentrate on getting used to a higher cadence, feeling good with it. There is a lot to experiment.
But at some time likely progress stalls, and then the times should become interesting.

At least for me the times are very valuable. And actually, you hardly can avoid knowing your times: don't you count your strokes?
Anyway, back to the times: At least I always overestimate my speed, when I go for the "feeling". "It feels soo good, it must be fast" -- HAH.

Now that I think I made a kind of breakthrough, fixing my stroke by getting rid of
- a long reach
- hip extension
- shoulder extension
- additional rotation

(NONE of that -- it just killed my stroke, for a long time, couldn't be cured -- and it seems not much is lost.)

I feel for the first time I really "connect to the water", better "connect" to speed. To really go fast, I think that already 25m is too long: you need to have many units, and you can't do this with 25m's. So you always swim too slow, without realising it.
And at least my body seems "to know" the coming distance, and always goes into "appropriate" saving mode, right from the beginning. HAH

The last month I concentrated on really short distances, 8m, 10m, 12.5m, to really go fast, and that OFTEN and (kind of) relaxed.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by SA on Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:49 pm

So you are becoming an ultra short distance sprinter more and more?
What armtiming do you use? Windmilling or still at the edge of front quadrant?
I sometimes do a sort of windmilling timing with a very fast catch, but that transforms into more extension and longer strokes within 5 strokes, because that seems more powerful. Taking bigger steps through the water once you have a higher strokerate and you are flying for a short while.
But thats the problem, I cant hold that timing going and also I am not strong enough to hold those big strokes together with the same mechanics as the smaller strokes. Somehwere the stroke switches back to hipdriven with reach etc.
There is a fine line that seems to be a sweet spot between these extremes, and possibly its best to approach this switchpoint from the high cadance side and balance on that point longer and longer while building stamina.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by Sprinter on Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:38 am

[quote="SA"]So you are becoming an ultra short distance sprinter more and more?
[/quote]

Just standard sprinting, 50m, and in the future perhaps also 100m.
But the shorter distances seem very important, as I tried to explain above.

[quote="SA"]
What armtiming do you use? Windmilling or still at the edge of front quadrant?
[/quote]

It seems to me that such purely abstract questions become less and less important, once one connects to speed and the water.

In general I am pretty convinced that the late starter must avoid all extremes.
Not too long, not too short, not too powerful, ...

For the 12.5m my target speed was 2m/s, that is, doing it in around 6.2-6.3s. That's just the edge, but I believe that I got that quite stably.
With 75 strokes/min stably around 7.2s, with 85 strokes/min around 6.8s, with 100 strokes/min around 6.5s, and with 110 strokes/min around ~6.25s.

It seems now to me that only with such fast swimming one can actually learn how to swim fast (only here indeed every detail counts).
Again and again I find that the most important general aspect is the rocket-shape, horizontally and vertically to be as flat and small as possible.

My flutter kicking is currently at a bit below 9s for the 12.5m. I think with the pure flutter kicking I made the best progress recently. Also the integration into the full stroke seems to improve.

[quote="SA"]
I sometimes do a sort of windmilling timing with a very fast catch, but that transforms into more extension and longer strokes within 5 strokes, because that seems more powerful. Taking bigger steps through the water once you have a higher strokerate and you are flying for a short while.
But thats the problem, I cant hold that timing going and also I am not strong enough to hold those big strokes together with the same mechanics as the smaller strokes. Somehwere the stroke switches back to hipdriven with reach etc.
There is a fine line that seems to be a sweet spot between these extremes, and  possibly its best to approach this switchpoint from the high cadance side and balance on that point longer and longer while building stamina.[/quote]

Various coaches say so, and I believe it more and more: one must practise at the relevant speed, there is very little transfer from lower speeds to higher speeds. So that whole (simple) idea of learning something at lower speed and transferring it to higher speed doesn't seem connected to reality. It's just a vague idea.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by SA on Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:51 am

It seems to me that such purely abstract questions become less and less important, once one connects to speed and the water.

I am convinced there are a lot of ways to connect to speed and the water, within sound mechanics and peronal style, so in my view thats nothing abstract, but i can imagine it feels abstract and uninteresting from a swimming perception.



In general I am pretty convinced that the late starter must avoid all extremes.

Not too long, not too short, not too powerful, ...

Yeah, I agree with that one for sure.



Various coaches say so, and I believe it more and more: one must practise at the relevant speed, there is very little transfer from lower speeds to higher speeds. So that whole (simple) idea of learning something at lower speed and transferring it to higher speed doesn't seem connected to reality. It's just a vague idea.

So better to increase distance at a certain speed than to increase distance from a certain (too low)speed?
This is more and more true if the desired speed and the practised speed are further apart.
Its also more true if the swimmer has a basically sound stroke.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by Sprinter on Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:11 pm

[quote="SA"][i]It seems to me that such purely abstract questions become less and less important, once one connects to speed and the water.[/i]

I am convinced there are a lot of ways to connect to speed and the water, within sound mechanics and personal style, so in my view thats nothing abstract, but i can imagine it feels abstract and uninteresting from a swimming perception.
[/quote]

The purely abstract nature of notions like "windmilling" is precisely that they are not connected to sound mechanics or personal style or whatever, but it's just a rough idea. It can give a starting point for an investigation, "let's try this", but the reality in the water is what counts. Reacting to this reality is the key, and this is much more complex than these bullet points.

[quote="SA"][i]Various coaches say so, and I believe it more and more: one must practise at the relevant speed, there is very little transfer from lower speeds to higher speeds. So that whole (simple) idea of learning something at lower speed and transferring it to higher speed doesn't seem connected to reality. It's just a vague idea.[/i]

So better to increase distance at a certain speed than to increase distance from a certain (too low)speed?
This is more and more true if the desired speed and the practised speed are further apart.
Its also more true if the swimmer has a basically sound stroke.[/quote]

There is always the danger of overdoing. So obviously one should lookout for a certain variety. But the maximum-speed approach comes naturally when in a hotel with a swimming pool, and then one can take the typical short length as an *advantage*. The total-length approach by Cottmiller seems sensible to me, and so you might concentrate on such an approach for a few months.

But in general I believe that if you goal is to maximise your swimming abilities, then it seems better to increase distance at a good speed, or to do interval training with controlled speed. While slow swimming, as *training*, practises slow swimming and nothing else.

The SwimSmooth approach is the opposite. This was motivated by the (partially marketing) wish to connect especially to the triathletes, and they know about these wattage-approaches. You get what you train for: your fitness improves, but your swimming is capped. Their swimming isn't "slow swimming", but from the perspective to reach higher, I believe one should call it slow. Perhaps the SS-idea can be summarised as having a technique which isn't too bad, and the rest is endurance (for the late starters -- all the faster swimmers with SS seem to come from a swimming background).

I got the idea that 40s for 50m might be a kind of watershed. Only below this speed you start strongly feeling the water, above that you are living perhaps in your filter bubble (you might also use other, more positive words, like "spirituality" etc. here). Perhaps it's the lift and the drag which become really noticable here. So from that perspective, the first target would be reach the speed of 40s/50m, in a "reasonable way". And then to "smooth that out" (no relation to "smooth style", just in the sense of getting it reasonably relaxed and fluid), and take that as a starting point. The smoothing out seems important to connect to the water --- if there is too much movement, you still just feel your filter bubble.

Sure, already 1:20 for 100m is quite hard, and beyond that even harder. But therefore the shorter distances help us, and forms of interval training. 12.5m in 10s is perhaps doable for many in this forum, and doing this many times might be really beneficial (if you aren't swimming faster, of course).

The typical limit for a later starter with the SwimSmooth approach is perhaps that average speed of 45s/50m (1:30 for 100m). Perhaps that's fine for people who aren't so much interested in swimming (in itself -- they like the exercise etc., but the "swimming miracle" isn't their problem). But I believe one can reach higher.

Sure, there are many variables here. Personality, body type, sex, age etc. So hopefully the above speculations aren't take offensive, but as an encouragement to try out swimming faster. And the holiday season might be good for that, since these short outbursts should be doable in most hotel pools.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by Sprinter on Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:15 pm

Addition: I always have a laser distance meter in my suitcase, so I know the lengths of these hotel pools Very Happy

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:30 am

That's 5km at 82 spm ticked off! Total 15km at 75+ spm so far.

Have commenced the next phase of 85.7 spm (0.7 on the Finis bleeper).

Still going strong surprisingly and still tidying up straggly bits. The earlier I move the head to breathe, the more air I get and the sooner I get it back streamlined.

The clocks don't work much in the two pools I go to. All I know is that I catch people up having given them half a lap start. Even on the warm down laps I was much quicker than the lady next to me.

I don't think that I could be doing this if it weren't for the years of drills such as Ankle band, Unco, and Water Polo.



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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:24 am

Got stuck into the 85.7 spm phase now and finding new things.

1) It is easiest to match the hand entry to the bleep. This is because I simply reduce the stroke length with earlier exit. This can be catch-up timing.

2) Matching the bleep to the thumb touching thigh is hardest because it needs a longer underwater stroke that has to be very fast. This is nearer to kayak timing but will be the best action when perfected.

3) Synchronising the two beat toe flick to the bleep shows up a slight disconnect between the left toe flick and the right hand entry. This is an inefficiency that needs correcting.

-0-

It is a pity that other posters are not interested in this stuff. Watching the European Championships we see everybody doing 80-100 spm.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by Sprinter on Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:14 pm

[quote="cottmiler"]
The clocks don't work much in the two pools I go to.  All I know is that I catch people up having given them half a lap start.  Even on the warm down laps I was much quicker than the lady next to me.
[/quote]
There are slower and faster ladies ;-)
Just count once the total number of beeps for 50m.

What kind of distances/intervals are you doing?

[quote="cottmiler"]
I don't think that I could be doing this if it weren't for the years of drills such as Ankle band, Unco, and Water Polo.
[/quote]
But it could be for example that the main point here is the amount of swimming, not what was done exactly.

What would be needed is truly a big-data analysis of many adult swimmers over a couple of years, taking a lot of parameters into consideration.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by Sprinter on Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:21 pm

[quote="cottmiler"]Got stuck into the 85.7 spm phase now and finding new things.

1) It is easiest to match the hand entry to the bleep.  This is because I simply reduce the stroke length with earlier exit.  This can be catch-up timing.

2) Matching the bleep to the thumb touching thigh is hardest because it needs a longer underwater stroke that has to be very fast.  This is nearer to kayak timing but will be the best action when perfected.
[/quote]

Seems a bit strange to me, to couple the special technique of handling the beep-synchronisation with the swimming technique.

I would think that the hand-entry in general is best, since it has a duration, and the recovery can be varied, while touching-the-thigh is too fast, and can not be freely varied (the phase leading to it).

My stroke rates currently are between 75 spm and 120 spm. In each case I find that it is essential that there is a short phase at least where the hand glides forward under water, so that I can find the "plane" on which I swim.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:57 am

That's 5km at 85.7 spm completed.

Next step is 89.5 spm commencing on Sunday.

I'm sure there is still too much slippage but despite that it feels good to be swimming "fast".

I noticed today that I need a better early vertical forearm on the right side.




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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by cottmiler on Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:04 pm

I have no problem flipping the arms over at 89.5 spm as shown today. So that is a total of 20 kms at 75 - 89.5 spm. I bet lots of people can't do that.

However, when I count the beeps as suggested by sprinter then there are too many of them per lap.

What that means is that the distance per stroke DPS is inadequate and something needs to be done about it. There is too much slippage which means that the hand isn't catching the water properly.

Playing with a Finis Agility paddle on one hand, it showed how to improve the catch whilst not forcing the legs to drop.

It might better now to spend some more time doing Catch and Throw Drill.

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Re: High Cadence Project

Post by Sprinter on Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:25 pm

[quote="cottmiler"]
However, when I count the beeps as suggested by sprinter then there are too many of them per lap.

What that means is that the distance per stroke DPS is inadequate and something needs to be done about it.  There is too much slippage which means that the hand isn't catching the water properly.[/quote]

Come on, Cotti, give us some numbers study

I like the number [b]50[/b] here: roughly
 1 stroke per meter.
Easy for calculations, for any distance.
But that's already quite fast: 50m with 0.8s/stroke is 50s*0.8=40s, and with 0.7s/stroke we get 35s.

Since I believe in fast swimming (only!), that's alright with me, only doing 25m and 50m.
But if you are doing longer distances or intervals, then these speeds are likely too fast (at least for now).

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