Nightcrawler is Back!

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Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:04 am

Dear My Precious Swimming Friends,

Heard that I was missed here Very Happy Decided to come back and keep conversation with my dear friends...

Life is full of challenges. Economic difficulties, serious illnesses, family problems, and political unrest plague people on a daily basis. How a person faces each challenge that comes their way however, says much about their character, who they are on the inside. Some people draw strength and inspiration from the experiences of others. Many famous people from both the past and present have helped and inspired people to face and overcome life's many challenges through their behaviours. Such people help people to see they are not alone in their struggles and that it is possible to overcome their problems.

Life is really strange, everybody wants to rule the world. Unfortunately everywhere is full of dismissive, patronizing, condescending - "know it all" mannered people, since you get older you realize them easier and cant stand silent... One can be a record holder, champion, etc but in my eyes he/she only becomes great when manages to beat his/her ego. With an engineering approach I can say that, the only absolute truth in this life is there is no absolute truth, truth changes according to time(relativity) because there is a law called entrophy which is the second law of thermodynamics which describes the measure of disorder or randomness in a system. Entropy states that the universe is always increasing. Without some outside input of energy to reverse it, all systems(including the universe) wind down to total disorder and randomness. To put is simply - if you put 100 pure-bred dogs in a room you wind up with mutts, not with more pure-breeds. Entropy is the ultimate, scientific and mathematical illustration of the imperfect or fallen nature of the physical world. Thus, an up-to-date method in the year 2008 such as classification of swim types(overglider, bambino, arnie, etc), or a human made-up concept called Critical Swim Speed-CSS may be depreciated in the year 2017, who knows...

We are the sum of experiences that we encounter as we go through life. Day to day struggles and triumphs are experienced by all of the world's creatures. As human beings, when we encounter a challenge, we have freedom to choose how to react. Every decision that we make leads us down a different road. We will never come to exactly the same crossroads. Every decision that we make has significance. The tiniest choice that we make reverberates throughout the entire universe.

After my dear friends' invitation to this forum through linkedin, now I see that I really have done something good or useful or apart from all I have brought a synergy between you all.
I am pleased to being a part of this beautiful forum.
Let the synergy continue...
Very truly yours,
nightcrawler
Senior Engineer & Elite Swimmer


Last edited by nightcrawler on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:32 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by cottmiler on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:25 am

Mehrhaba!
Gunaydin!
Iyi aksamlar!

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:35 am

Thanks Mr. Cottmiler,
The friendship wins... I wish justice for all!

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by s.sciame on Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:06 pm

Welcome back NC! By the way, I had invited you with a private message on TI forum but I guess you didn't receive it. Never considered the idea of passing through linkedin Very Happy

Some of us also updated our signature on SS forum by mentioning "I'm also on theswimforum.palstani.com": there's still some traffic there, someone may read it and join us. I encourage you to do the same if you like.

Cheers,
Salvo

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:12 pm

You are just like a cat with 9 lives.
Just keeps on coming back!
Didnt know you were on the TI forum....

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:58 am

Thanks SA, nice irony!

If something goes into motion, it stays in motion; the process itself feeds the fire.

I m a follower on TI forum, have some pals there.

Who is that SA?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:51 pm

Smooooooothhhhhh.......Arniiieeeee......

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Adivio on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:05 pm

Very Happy

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:24 pm

Ahaa, I saw a cat?Smile)
Happy to hear from you, keep contact.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:09 pm

By the way, your interest and hospitality made me feel that i am not alone in this nasty world.

Special thanks to Cottmiler(thought i could be on linkedin), to Adivio for the invitation message, to Salvo for his always being analytically kind, to Smootharnie for his clever irony ,show must go on Smootharnie show must go on... Very Happy

At the moment i am preparing for a marathon on February the 25th in Datca which is a winter open water marathon 5k at 16 celcious degrees , for this event i am applying a self designed workout program,  i can share it below this title if you want.

Regards,
Emrah

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by s.sciame on Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:03 pm

nightcrawler wrote:
At the moment i am preparing for a marathon on February the 25th in Datca which is a winter open water marathon 5k at 16 celcious degrees , for this event i am applying a self designed workout program,  i can share it below this title if you want.


wow, 5k at 16C, pretty cold! Still sure you want to lose weight? If you share your workouts I'll read them with much interest as always. Moreover 5k is a distance I'll want to prepare sooner or later.

Cheers,
Salvo

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Mike A on Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:54 pm

I did 10k at 16C in September, but in a wetsuit. Even in a wetsuit and neoprene boots, I was mildly hypothermic after 2 hrs 25 in the water. But some hardy souls did it in just trunks/swimming costumes!
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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:14 am

Lastly I participated this race in 2013, I swam with a pool trunk, became the 1st in overall ranking with 1 hour 14 minutes. The second came 1:22 who is the swimmer of the famous club Galatasaray. I swam almost alone in the race with a relaxed pace, determined my own pace.

The following year the first's time was 1:11 and in the previous year the first (again the same person Emre Erdogan) swam 1:09, he is now the best masters' marathon swimmer in my country, also soon aiming to complete Ocean's 7, last summer he crossed the Biritsh Channel with 9:35, he is 27 years old and trained by my ex-club's coach, and at the moment he is preparing for Catalina Straight marathon.
Some of his photos:
http://www.channelswimmingassociation.com/swim/4491/emre-erdogan
http://www.pictaram.com/user/eerdogan13/212719946

I am estimating that I can swim the 5K sub 1:10 this year, I think at the 40 years of age managing this, while working in a full time job, sucks Very Happy  

Dear my all SwimPals,
If you send me your whatsapp information through PM, I can happily add you to my contacts.

Regards.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by s.sciame on Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:02 pm

nightcrawler wrote:Lastly I participated this race in 2013, I swam with a pool trunk, became the 1st in overall ranking with 1 hour 14 minutes.

You already trained 100% usrpt, right? Do you remember your times and intervals in the pool which allowed you to finish in 1:14 (ie holding 1:28.8/100m on avg)?

Now, to swim sub 1:10 you should hold sub 1:24/100m, ie 5s per 100m faster than then. Again, what times and intervals do you think you should be hitting in the pool to succeed?

Salvo

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:25 am

My workouts are going very well, as I planned. For my preparation to the race I wrote down a 10 week program including maintaining the same SPL with slightly increasing cadance according to a polinomial distribution. The program consists of 25-50-75m sets as USRPT but not pure USRPT, there is no fail and success, also the recoveries are tighter, instead of power doing more technique focused drills among the sets.

According to this program, I am expecting a time around 1:07-1:08 for the 5K, you know it also depends on the water conditions. Progress is satisfactory right now, i am easily sustaining the 1:20 pace with 130-140 heart rate and this is still slightly improving.

I am seing the expected results day by day. Nowadays havent got enough time to share daily workouts on the forum, may share in the following days...

I am swimming in the mornings(6:30-8:00) before the work and also supporting my technique with dry land sessions in the evenings at home while watching TV. I made some changes in my technique, I added the kick pattern and developed a sustainable 18 SPL which is appropriate to my DNA.

Here are some videos of mine(video quality is not so good but may give some idea):

My old technique(Less kick and less extension with SPL:20-21):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IQwf-4EGCU&t=2s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpgogWTT0hE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7au-JCThA6w

My new technique (More kick and more extension with SPL:17-18):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9cLcSsmxXI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggKmuO7QcIo

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:30 am

What dryland you do in front of the TV? Stretching ?
I am also rediscovering stretching out more at the front , but directly followed with getting the arm down over the ball and untwist the body after catch.
I am still not clear if ingraining an armstroke that work well with a 6BK is usefull for a higher strokerate 2BK style.
There seem to be conficts if you keep the arm extended too long, but if you keep arms ans shoulders moving with a 6 BK the armstoke becomes more universally usable.

When I describe the upperbody muscle action as similar to moving yourself forward as lying in the sand, planting your elbows in the sand and dragging your body forward from that planted elbow followed by planting the other elbow in the samd and dragging you froward from the other side.
Does that have any resemblance with your upperbody action in your old style?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:58 am

I am doing 4kg-dumbell(biceps, triceps, shoulder), light-stretchcord, easy-calisthetics (push ups, burpees, dips) including scapular shoulder stabilizations and mobilizations, after all trying to do door-bar pullups (only can do 4 now), also 3x20 reps situps, leg raises, prone-cobra exercises for loosing the belly fat. Since my wife joining me in this home exercises program, it becomes more joyfull.

My new technique made me swim water-start 1:03 100m free last week after the workout session while I am exhausted and the folowing day 7:48 for 600m free, which are my PB times in my swimming life.

Smootharnie, i think you are mixing up the 2 things 2bk and 6bk. I am not dealing with 2bk at the moment  I am intending to keep my new technique in 5K.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:38 pm

Some people believe that as the cadance increase the SPL increase.

Absolutely not! Believe or not, absolutely not!
I have to say that there is no correlation between SPL and SR...

Now let me prove it...

Assume that 400m middle distance world record pace (00:00:53) has the 100% efficiency (is he kicking good or pulling bad or vice versa or using 2bk/6bk/high low cadance - it doesnt matter, this is the most efficient stroke in any case).

Then STROKE EFFICIENCY TABLE will be:
PACE EFFICIENCY
00:01:00 96,7%
00:01:01 95,1%
00:01:02 93,5%
00:01:03 92,1%
00:01:04 90,6%
00:01:05 89,2%
00:01:06 87,9%
00:01:07 86,6%
00:01:08 85,3%
00:01:09 84,1%
00:01:10 82,9%
00:01:11 81,7%
00:01:12 80,6%
00:01:13 79,5%
00:01:14 78,4%
00:01:15 77,3%
00:01:16 76,3%
00:01:17 75,3%
00:01:18 74,4%
00:01:19 73,4%
00:01:20 72,5%
00:01:21 71,6%
00:01:22 70,7%
00:01:23 69,9%
00:01:24 69,0%
00:01:25 68,2%
00:01:26 67,4%
00:01:27 66,7%
00:01:28 65,9%
00:01:29 65,2%
00:01:30 64,4%
00:01:31 63,7%
00:01:32 63,0%
00:01:33 62,4%
00:01:34 61,7%
00:01:35 61,1%
00:01:36 60,4%
00:01:37 59,8%
00:01:38 59,2%
00:01:39 58,6%
00:01:40 58,0%
00:01:41 57,4%
00:01:42 56,9%
00:01:43 56,3%
00:01:44 55,8%
00:01:45 55,2%
00:01:46 54,7%
00:01:47 54,2%
00:01:48 53,7%
00:01:49 53,2%
00:01:50 52,7%
00:01:51 52,3%
00:01:52 51,8%
00:01:53 51,3%
00:01:54 50,9%
00:01:55 50,4%
00:01:56 50,0%
00:01:57 49,6%
00:01:58 49,2%
00:01:59 48,7%
00:02:00 48,3%
00:02:01 47,9%
00:02:02 47,5%
00:02:03 47,2%
00:02:04 46,8%
00:02:05 46,4%
00:02:06 46,0%
00:02:07 45,7%
00:02:08 45,3%
00:02:09 45,0%
00:02:10 44,6%
00:02:11 44,3%
00:02:12 43,9%
00:02:13 43,6%
00:02:14 43,3%
00:02:15 43,0%
00:02:16 42,6%
00:02:17 42,3%
00:02:18 42,0%
00:02:19 41,7%
00:02:20 41,4%
00:02:21 41,1%
00:02:22 40,8%
00:02:23 40,6%
00:02:24 40,3%
00:02:25 40,0%
00:02:26 39,7%
00:02:27 39,5%
00:02:28 39,2%
00:02:29 38,9%
00:02:30 38,7%

Let be;
L=Lenghth of the pool
P=Push of the wall
A: Stroke Length or Height(Armspan)
E: Efficency value on the above table

We have already all memorized that classical SPL = (L-P)(A)
Now add the efficency to this formula: SPL = (L-P)(A*E) Nice huh? Very Happy


INITIAL VALUES
Age: 40
Average Pace: 00:01:26
Stroke Length or Height (m): 1,78
Pool Lenght (m): 25,0
Push off wall (m): 3,0

When we put these values on the formula we get the SPL=18,3

To see a real life experiment(my 10 week program) with a real subject(me) please take a look at the below image:


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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by s.sciame on Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:06 pm

nightcrawler wrote:My workouts are going very well, as I planned. For my preparation to the race I wrote down a 10 week program including maintaining the same SPL with slightly increasing cadance according to a polinomial distribution. The program consists of 25-50-75m sets as USRPT but not pure USRPT, there is no fail and success, also the recoveries are tighter, instead of power doing more technique focused drills among the sets.

According to this program, I am expecting a time around 1:07-1:08 for the 5K, you know it also depends on the water conditions. Progress is satisfactory right now, i am easily sustaining the 1:20 pace with 130-140 heart rate and this is still slightly improving.

I am seing the expected results day by day. Nowadays havent got enough time to share daily workouts on the forum, may share in the following days...


Great news, massive improvement! From the last days on SS forum it seems to me you did really breakthrough! By the way the approach you're following (maintaining the same SPL with slightly increasing cadence) sounds quite similar to Terry Laughlin's (even if you don't like TI).
Way to go, keep us posted!

Salvo

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:13 am

25.12.2016 - 3500m - A relaxed/rehabilitative Sunday workout with my friends

Dry Land Warm up:
5 minutes burpees/lunges/squats/jumping jacks/arm rolls on land

Water Warm up:
500 easy freestyle with some drills like one arm extension, doggy paddle, fist.

Set1:
30x50m as fast as can freestyle with 10 seconds/or 5 bubbles rest (average pace: 1:18)

Recovery:
100 kicking with board
4x25m freestyle with 6 SPL paying attention on high elbow recovery technique

Set2:
40x25m as fast as can freestyle with 10 seconds/or 5 bubbles rest (average pace: 1:16)

Recovery:
100 kicking with board
4x25m freestyle with 6 SPL paying attention on high elbow recovery technique

Cool Down:
100 easy fly

Notes: I organized a training with 2 friends who crossed Gibraltar and English channels last summer. They are a bit slower than me(have paces around 1:25 and 1:35)  so that I leaded the sets, there was a good synergy and nice motivation. We decided to come together every Sunday...

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:30 am

s.sciame wrote:
nightcrawler wrote:My workouts are going very well, as I planned. For my preparation to the race I wrote down a 10 week program including maintaining the same SPL with slightly increasing cadance according to a polinomial distribution. The program consists of 25-50-75m sets as USRPT but not pure USRPT, there is no fail and success, also the recoveries are tighter, instead of power doing more technique focused drills among the sets.

According to this program, I am expecting a time around 1:07-1:08 for the 5K, you know it also depends on the water conditions. Progress is satisfactory right now, i am easily sustaining the 1:20 pace with 130-140 heart rate and this is still slightly improving.

I am seing the expected results day by day. Nowadays havent got enough time to share daily workouts on the forum, may share in the following days...


Great news, massive improvement! From the last days on SS forum it seems to me you did really breakthrough! By the way the approach you're following (maintaining the same SPL with slightly increasing cadence) sounds quite similar to Terry Laughlin's (even if you don't like TI).
Way to go, keep us posted!

Salvo

Sorry Salvo, you are not the subject matter, please dont be offended. But I have to say that;

I dont/cannot/wont follow the directives of a group like TI (or SS) who are swimming weaker and slower than me in all distances and in all events. Show me a TI guy (or SS or another guy from a swim marketing organization) who can maintain the 1:00/100m pace in any event then I am gonna adore him/her!

On the other hand, please note that TI or SS lıke organizations are not saying something new, anyone who had swum in a swimming club had already known/done those drills including body rotation, higher DPS or lower SPL concepts, they are not new and those organizations have nothing put something new to swimming world, they has just compiled those concepts as a package for marketing them to the beginners or the grandpas/mas for rehabiltation. Whats more, I have never seen a guy swimming in the olympics and any other events including the open water races who follow TI os Ss like organizations' directives.

I am doing what I learned from my coaches during my club years between my ages of 5-16 not from TI. I have taken my coaching certificate in 1995 and have been both swimming and preparing weekly/monthly/yearly or 10-20 weeks periodic macrocyle plans for myself and my students since then, while TI or SS like marketing companies were not available. Also my coaches have been doing the same for over 50+ years.

The people around me swimming faster than me do not follow any commercial/paternalistic swimming platform or even watching youtube videos.

I fed up with hearing/seeing how marketing superheros like "Uncle Terry" or "Almighty Paul" learned swimming, I want to get/learn something useful and productive for making a swimmer faster apart from rubbish CSS / swim type / red mist household concepts that we all have memorized and know better than the rules in the Bible.

Indeed; if these were really useful, wouldnt we all be swimming with at least a modest pace like 1:10? Might be severe but true!  Keep in mind that "when you say the truth they cant stand you and kick you out, because truth hurts"!

IMHO, TI or SS may be instructive for the newbies and recreational water lovers but not for the people who want to swim faster and go one step further. In order to swim faster we need to swim faster not graceful or elegant. So that, rather than being a "paternalistic", trying and finding out the new hints is a key for getting stronger and faster.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:40 am

Isnt it nice to have an  unbiased swim forum Nightcrawler? ha , ha

fron your coaching experience; how fast do you think a guy who started swimming after age 50, swimmig 3 hours a week can get?
Lets assume he has about the same swim `talents` as yourself.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:19 pm

Hi SA,

I can give you 3 near time specific examples.

1) "Kemal" 48 years old who used to swam the 100m free 1:32 in masters race 2 years ago now can swim 1:18 after 2 years of training 3 times a week by my workouts that I gave him + 1 day participating in my swim clinic. (18% improved).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02SoJ92pTi4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3w534F8KVk

2) "Onder" (49 years of age) who had the same pace in freestyle has been participating 100-200m masters backstroke events. He used to swim 3:42 and 1:41 200 and 100m back respectively 2 years ago. Last month in masters race he swam 3:12(15% improved) and 1:32(10% improved).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stUEuSNF01U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjfYChC9lTs

3) "Ceyhun" 40 years old who swam 50m free 0:34 and 100m free 1:22 in corporate games 2 years ago, last summer swam 0:30(13% improved) and 1:11(16% improved).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL2DQx1wLRk

Note that improvement is of a curve like exponential decrease (first you improve faster then still improve but less by each day). It depends on your discipline/mindset and the methodology that you follow. I believe that still can improve to some extend like Kemal, Onder and Ceyhun.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:42 pm

Ok, So I am in the same ballpark with 1.15 min/100 free  1.30 min/100 back.  No surprise than  that further improvement is getting harder/impossible without serious and smart training.
Those guys dont have big flaws, but there is still room for technique improvement. Thats also the same in my case.

How are you gonna fix that  horrible pull from this student of yours?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlMUvxg0MNw#t=13.583061
Looks like its not a good idea to let him swim to much distance with these mechanics, otherwise he has to swim the same distance to unlearn it,

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:04 am

SA wrote:Ok, So I am in the same ballpark with 1.15 min/100 free  1.30 min/100 back.  No surprise than  that further improvement is getting harder/impossible without serious and smart training.
Those guys dont have big flaws, but there is still room for technique improvement. Thats also the same in my case.

How are you gonna fix that  horrible pull from this student of yours?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlMUvxg0MNw#t=13.583061
Looks like its not a good idea to let him swim to much distance with these mechanics, otherwise he has to  swim the same distance to unlearn it,

Neural Adaptive Training can be an answer for smart training which also refers to USRPT. Maybe the below summarized links useful for you to perceive the idea:

https://www.uml.edu/campusrecreation/staff/EP%20II%20Materials/Neuromuscular%20Adaptations%20to%20Training.pdf

https://codycordeiro.com/2014/10/19/the-low-down-on-hypertrophy-sarcoplasmic-vs-sarcomere-aka-myofibrillar/

https://www.thetrainingroom.com/blog/fitness/april-2013/do-you-want-to-be-big-or-strong

For my student Tolga, I am planning a couple of one to one workouts on Sundays. One arm drill (one arm extended forward other arm pulling) with very slow and constant speed while watching his pulling arm can be a solution for him. Today morning we met at the pool, I showed the drill, he tried and succeded. Actually he is showing the true mechanics on land but in water he is loosing attention.  He is a 6 months' swimmer dont have swimming background at all, he is a yacht captain, loves sea and sun, sailing all over the world, using swimming for theraphy purposes dont have any goals and big egos like us Very Happy

nightcrawler

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