Nightcrawler is Back!

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:08 pm

s.sciame wrote:But according to your post I'd say you think more than me Wink
You must admit that I am a retired swimmer at the moment, just swimming for fun and health, recreation, motivating others, etc. I wasnt thinking 20 years ago when I was a club swimmer, those who are simultaneously writing/asking in the forums and also my students pushed me to read and learn in order to provide them academical information, now again trying not to think so much and let them too, just swimming and logging my results into spreadsheet.

As far as I understand from the maths above (but I may be missing something), this final 1:21 pace doesn't take into account that you don't turn&pushoff in open water. I had asked you a question only about this subject, call it "swimming speed" vs "turn&pushoff speed": pool times are the combination of the 2 components, while open water times obviously aren't affected by the second component.
No problem anyway, if not that at the moment I don't have 1 billion euros cash Wink

When I dont write smthng it doesnt mean that it is not taken into account of, did a declare that something like "swimming speed" or "turns/pushoffs", no.

Well, pushoff and turn included(hidden) in that calculation. Seeing that you are still deducing and reasoning I am asking the you the question then, guess where is the push/turn hidden?  If you cant know the answer, I am gonna send you my IBAN number for getting my cash asap Very Happy


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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:36 pm

Adivio wrote:Thanks Nightcrawler!

Don't know about the bilateral every 3rd. What I know for sure is that I need
all the oxygen I can get. I could perhaps try to use it during the slower swims.

And for the 2nd point, indeed, I should somehow lengthen my stroke but how to do it it's a mystery.

Being lack of oxygen stems from your high stroke cadance, swim with a lower cadance(higher stroke rate) and try to focus on bilateral breathing (instead of 3 or 4 arm breath take 3-5 arm breath). Actually, all one side(unilateral) breathers on the scenes you are watching also can do also bilateral breathing in their workouts, this will allow you to build muscles symetrically, it takes just few weeks to get used to, dont worry. Soon we will not me discussing about left side or right side, need to consider the stroke technique as a whole.

You can lenghten your stroke by the hand drive after the entry, dont start to pull as soon as your hand enters the water (i know due to SS's rubbish high cadance choppy punchy mantras we got used to it, it was also the same with my stroke, within a couple of months I reconstructed my dirty stroke). In the beginning try classical smooth swim technique breath in each 3 strokes and use 6bk. After a couple of months you will start to sustain this and after a year you can easily shift to other kind of techniques like 2bk or mixed(2bk,6bk) kick.

Good luck.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:15 pm

I also wanted to share today's double session...

Morning session was 3500m.

12.01.2017 - Evening Session (2500m)
100m easy
Set1: 10x50m crawl int:55" (avg:37", AvgSPL:17)
100m easy
Set2: 10x50m crawl int:60" (avg:35", AvgSPL:17)
100m easy
Set3: 10x50m crawl int:65" (avg:34", AvgSPL:17)
100m easy
Set4: 10x50m crawl int:70" (avg:32", AvgSPL:17)
100m easy
My friend who is 200-400-800-1500m masters 40-45 year old age group record holder and who is also taking lessons from olympic swimmer Serkan Atasay called me for training. We did a tough set, i did my seasonal bests, especially in the last set. 10 seconds more recovery than my usual recovery boosted up my pace like a doping effect.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:25 am

13.01.2017 - Morning Session (2000m, SCM)
500 easy choice
Set1: 8 x 75m crawl int:75" (avg:58", SPL:17)
Set2: 10x50m crawl int:50" (avg:38", SPL:17)
Set3: 12x25m crawl int:25" (avg:17", SPL:17)

Right after the evening session(after short recovery period like 8 hours) in the monning I did the half of my usual 16x75,20x50,24x25m set. Again I used short itervals 75",50",25" respectively. I didnt compromise on quality, tried to hold my target race paces, tried to keep my concentration at the highest level, and succeded. I am happy with my progress. I feel the benefits of dry land exercises, especially the manmaker exercise is very useful for maintaining the scacupar, shoulder and core stabilizations, also I am doing lunges, they are useful for psoas muscle's extension which plays curcial role in core stabilization. I am adding power to my technique, obviously this provides the pace improvement. I am bewaring of useless drills which are really waste of time, also paying attention on specificty(i.e since my goal is long distance fs, I am not doing other strokes' sets, doing them only during warm ups or recoveries). "2 wrongs do not make 1 right", so I am always paying attention on the quality rather than the bulk distance.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:29 pm

13.01.2017 - Afternoon Session (2000m, SCM)
200 easy choice
Set1: 8 x 75m crawl int:75" (avg:57", SPL:17)
100 easy
Set2: 10x50m crawl int:50" (avg:36", SPL:17)
100 easy
Set3: 12x25m crawl int:25" (avg:17", SPL:17)
100 easy
At lunch time leaked out from the office, did the second half of my sets that i couldnt do in the morning session.

At the end,  i reached my target paces! Seems that i can maintain the 1:18 pace in 5K. Soon gonna mske a 1.5K test.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:09 pm

How dio you use your hip when there is no kick? Do you have a method to exagerate the feeling so that I know exactly what you mean?
Whats you hip roll angle and your shoulder roll angle?

I am hooked on extending and contracting as much as posisible at the moment. A swimmer without flexibiliry is missing a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8vejjVgIHg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc8Hno4M0Qs

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:44 am


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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:52 am

Yeahhh and what????

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:26 am

how can peoole without legs swim faster than you?
iliopsoas muscle does that rotation, not the kick!

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:04 pm

OK, now we are getting somewhere.
it connects the back with the hips and the upperleg.
Can you describe the time sequence in what order what is fired?
i am getting so fed up with this mystification of hip drive.

I gues this has something to do with it?



This description of Tjfry completely matches my perception of the stroke and makes logical sense.
Hip driven swimming is where the foot (read:kick) anchors the lower part of the body so that you can start a twisting motion to rotate the body, so that you can engage more of the back muscles (lats) in the pull. The kick and the pull work in unison to drive a bigger, more powerful stroke. The “hip drive” of this stroke largely comes from the kick, but the coordinated effort between the pull and hip/kick create and accelerated rotation and helps drive the next stroke. Hence the hip and bat swing analogy. Bigger rotation, more powerful pull, slower turnover, and often a lopsided stroke are signs of this stroke.
If I put on fins I can create a much more powerful stroke on the rotational kicks. Without fins the leg gets much less traction on the water and the power has to shift more to the upperbody.
If I had the same traction on the foot without fins I would swim 100% smooth style all the time. Now I have to add some swinger stuff faster cactch to not loose momentum.

In the water you only can use water resistance and working with seperate bodymasses to drive a certain movement.
If the legs are cut off only body mass (from the hips) is left.
So please describe more exactly what you mean.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:40 pm

SA wrote:
If I had the same traction on the foot without fins I would swim 100% smooth style all the time. Now I have to add some swinger stuff faster catch to not loose momentum.
I think this is incomplete. Did you ever really engage with really high stroke rates, 100 strokes per minute and above? It has some addictive quality (and this is a good thing for a sport -- motivation always plays an important role).
I again and again make the following, startling observation: I feel tired. Then I move, in the middle of the section, despite the obvious fear of the exertion, to 25m's with quite high stroke rate, 85 SPM - 100 SPM. And that helps! I feel energised. Sometimes I even leave the pool in some kind of euphoric state. And that comes from the high stroke rate -- only staying with low stroke rates, if I feel too tired, never produces such a change.

Perhaps it's the increased oxygen/blood flow. And some endorphins seem to be produced, which are not produced by lower stroke rates (at least for me; but it seems not unnatural).

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:40 pm

Hi SA,
hip rotation is not driven by the kick action, core muscles(psoas, scapula,abbs,obliques) engaged while extending forward, pulling and weight shifting from side to side.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:35 am

Another whole sentence of information.
Its a strange subject, never found a clear explanation from a swim coach what we mean exactly by hip drive etc.
Is it really so complicated? Or is it so obvious and natural that most of us do it by instinct already?

Those muscles you mention all connect the hips to the upperbody, except the psoas, that musckle connects to the legs and has to do with kicking motions, so without a kick we strictly speaking dont need the psoas.


Flexion and Extension

Your psoas work with other muscles in your hips and legs to flex and extend the hip joints. These are the primary movement patterns of the hip joints when you walk, run, or kick in a straight line. The psoas also laterally flexes on one side and laterally extends on the opposite side of the the torso when you bend your torso to one one side. When you lie on the ground and lift your torso to an upright position, your psoas assist in pulling your torso up.

Internal and External Rotation

Internal and external rotation involve the psoas to turn with other leg muscles and hip rotators to your left and right. This allows your torso to turn with a wider range of motion than without turning your hip joints. You can sense the way the psoas and buttocks move together by standing with your legs about hip-width apart and then rotating your right leg to your left and right with the balls of your feet and your toes in contact with the ground. This is essential to changing directions when you run, twisting your legs and hips when you dance, or performing kicks across your body.


Whats left are all muscles connecting a bony structure called hips at the end of the spine to the upperbody.
I can only conclude the upperbody is pullling the hipbones along if we dont have legs.
I must say, swimming with the upperbody activated upward from the hips  lets the leg do a 2BK automatically without any muscles action between hips and legs, but thats not a driving action, but a reaction movement of the legs to the upperbody action.

I can choose to enhance this naturally happening movement, but then I call this kicking, even if its almost with a straight leg, like Shelley Taylor Smiths 2Bk style.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:40 am

SA Wrote:
Those muscles you mention all connect the hips to the upperbody, except the psoas, that musckle connects to the legs and has to do with kicking motions, so without a kick we strictly speaking dont need the psoas.


Swimming is not a rocket science, but many coaches dont read and dont practice in the water at all. I m not only a coach but also a competitive active swimmer. You can get the right answer when you ask me.

Your questions' answer: ACTIVATION OF PSOAS BY THE UPPER BODY MECHANICS ABOVE STARTS THE HIP ROTATION AND HIP ROTATION STARTS THE KICK!

Let's see this also in the anatomy book:

UPPER BODY MECHANICS:
As the hand enters into the water, the wrist and elbow follow and the arm is extended to the starting position of the propulsive phase. Upward rotation of the shoulder blade allows the swimmer to reach an elongated position in the water. From this elongated position, the first part of the propulsive phase begins with the catch. The initial movements are first generated by the clavicular portion of the pectoralis major. The latissimus dorsi quickly joins in to assist the pectoralis major. These two muscles generate a majority of the force during the underwater pull, mostly during the second half of the pull. The wrist flexors act to hold the wrist in a position of slight flexion for the entire duration of the propulsive phase. At the elbow, the elbow flexors (biceps brachii and brachialis) begin to contract at the start of the catch phase, gradually taking the elbow from full extension into approximately 30 degrees of flexion. During the final portion of the propulsive phase the triceps brachii acts to extend the elbow, which brings the hand backward and upward toward the surface of the water, thus ending the propulsive phase. The total amount of extension taking place depends on your specific stroke mechanics and the point at which you initiate your recovery. The deltoid and rotator cuff (supraspinatus, infraspinatus, teres minor, and subscapularis) are the primary muscles active during the recovery phase, functioning to bring the arm and hand out of the water near the hips and return them to an overhead position for reentry into the water. The arm movements during freestyle are reciprocal in nature, meaning that while one arm is engaged in propulsion, the other is in the recovery process.

Several muscle groups function as stabilizers during both the propulsive phase and the recovery phase. One of the key groups is the shoulder blade stabilizers (pectoralis minor, rhomboid, levator scapula, middle and lower trapezius, and the serratus anterior), which as the name implies serve to anchor or stabilize the shoulder blade. Proper functioning of this muscle group is important because all the propulsive forces generated by the arm
and hand rely on the scapula's having a firm base of support. Additionally, the shoulder blade stabilizers work with the deltoid and rotator cuff to reposition the arm during the recovery phase. The core stabilizers (transversus abdominis, rectus abdominis, internal oblique, external oblique, and erector spinae) are also integral to efficient stroke mechanics because they serve as a link between the movements of the upper and lower extremities. This link is central to coordination of the body roll that takes place during freestyle swimming.

LEGS:
Like the arm movements, the kicking movements can be
categorized as a propulsive phase and a recovery phase; these are also referred to as the downbeat and the upbeat. The propulsive phase (downbeat) begins at the hips by activation of the iliopsoas and rectus femoris muscles (ACTIVATION OF PSOAS BY THE UPPER BODY MECHANICS ABOVE STARTS THE HIP ROTATION). The rectus femoris also initiates extension of the knee, which follows shortly after hip flexion begins. The quadriceps (vastus lateralis, vastus intermedius, and vastus medialis) join the rectus femoris to help generate more forceful extension of the knee. Like the propulsive phase, the recovery phase starts at the hips with contraction of the gluteal muscles (primarily gluteus maximus and medius) and is quickly followed by contraction of the hamstrings (biceps femoris, semitendinosus, and semimembranosus). Both muscle groups function as hip extensors. Throughout the entire kicking motion the foot is maintained in a plantarflexed position secondary to activation of the gastrocnemius and soleus and pressure exerted by the water during the downbeat portion of the kick.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:42 am

Thanks for your time and effort Nightcrawler.
THe reason I am so annoyed about this mystical hip drive thing is because there are thousands of swimmers moving and rotating their hips way too much with zero positive effect on their forward progress.
All because they heard about this magical source of power from  expert coaches and  reading about it in articles.
I was a victim myself and am still a bit pissed off. Lets try to be as clear as possible to what hip drive really means, to avoid further confusion.

(ACTIVATION OF PSOAS BY THE UPPER BODY MECHANICS ABOVE STARTS THE HIP ROTATION).

Yeah, and why? Because it connects the hips and spine to the upperlegs, and when you see the upper legs as rudders, moving one rudder up and the other down the attached body starts to rotate.
Thats what I cal kicking.
Its the same as stabilizers on the rear of a torpedo or flaps at the end of wings.
If you rotate these the toprpedo or the plane starts to rotate.
The psoas are the muscles that connect the main structure to these balancing flaps (the upperlegs)

This isnt the only source of hip rotation I think, but the psoas part is the part that connects the hips to the legs, so that has to be the part that is linked to kicking.
And since we assumed the hip rotation wasnt linked to kicking, I ruled out the psoas muscle.

And what about rotational kicks?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYRecPojBGY
Not an action used in full stroke?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:53 am

It may be hard for you to do the hip rotation without kicking, maybe you cannot do it properly since you didnt start swimming when u r 5 years old. But indeed it is not so complex.

Forget about anatomy, and kicking, swimming is not a rocket science, simply ask yourself: Can you rotate your hip with a pullbuoy, yes you can, then hip rotation is not a part of kicking.


Last edited by nightcrawler on Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:29 pm

I can rotate withourt a kick and a pull buoy, so yes you can rotate hips without a kick.
It just doesnt seem the optimal way to swim.
Adding rotational kicks gives more power to the stroke, driving into extension from hips to shoulders forward and helping the pulling action at the same time.
Ask Serkan next time what he thinks about it Wink

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:35 am

You still insist on rediscovering the Holy America! Very Happy  They have been saying that as one gets old he becomes more stubborn, this is true i think  Very Happy

No need to ask someone, by the way Serkan is not a coach he is an olympic swimmer, doesnt know about anatomy, he just swims faster, because has a more intensive background than us, swam around 20 thousands km in the younger ages 5-15, he neither joins the forums nor talks about swimming outside the pool like us. If we had also taken such an intensive practice before the puberty, we would not be discussing the hip rotation now. Everything is better, more beneficial and exciting when we are young.

As to proving the possibility of the hip rotation without kicking anymore, simply put your arnie feet side by side 1cm space between, mount a stretchcord to door, stand upright position and do lat pulls one left one right by the hip rotation. You will see that no need for the legs while doing the hip rotation. there is no magic/rocket science behind this, very fundamental and simple.

if you continue on questioning and thinking too much like this, you cant do it in the water,,, just remain yourself to the water, it will teach you the best.

Good luck.


Last edited by nightcrawler on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:06 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:27 am

Yesterday I did double session, a hard morning session alone and a moderate evening session with my masters' 40-45 years 200-400-800-1500m record holder friend.

17.01.2017 - Tuesday(3400m) - Morning Session
16x75m crawl int:75" (avg:57", best:55", Maintained SPL:17 for all)
200 easy
20x50m crawl int:50" (avg:37", best:36", Maintained SPL:17 for all)
200 easy
24x25m crawl int:25" (avg:18", best:17", Maintained SPL:17 for all)

Time Trials (SPL:17" for all):
1) 4x25m int:20" (15 - 16 - 17 - 18  Total net time: 01:08)
2) 4x25m int:40" (14 - 15 - 15 - 14)
The 1st trial was harder than the first one!

--------------------------------------

17.01.2017 - Tuesday(4000m) - Evening Session
Actually I didnt want to go to the pool, since my friend was leaving for LA tonight, I wanted to do a last session with him. I was lucky, he was swimming aerobic and technique oriented.

First before him, I did a 800m time trial in SCM with drag trunk in order to estimate my 5K pace. I swam 10:52 (1:23 pace). It was not the performance I expected but I felt really tired during the 800m trial, hardly maintain 17 SPL sometimes did 18 SPL, heart rate was around 140 at the end of the trial.

Then I moved to LCM and swam 3K behind my friend's toes, we swam 44:20, my heart rate was around 120 when we touched the wall.

--------------------------------------

Today morning I hardly woke up by swearing! Went to pool for the morning session:
18.01.2017 - Wednesday(SCM - 3700m) - Morning Session - With drag trunk
Set1: 16x75m crawl int:75" (avg:61", best:59", AvgSPL:17.5)
Recovery: 150 easy
Set2: 20x50m crawl int:50" (avg:40", best:38", AvgSPL:17.5)
Recovery: 150 easy
Set3: 24x25m crawl int:25" (avg:19", best:18", AvgSPL:17.5)
Recovery: 150 easy
TimeTrial: 500m crawl, with ankle bands + finis agility paddles (Time: 07:12, AvgSPL:17.5)
Notes: For a month I managed to increase my Functional Treshold Power (FTP or Wattage). But due to fatigue today morning both the set1-2-3 and 500m were really frustrating. I have been feeling tired and reluctant after yesterday's sessions. I hope in the days to come I can see their positive effects to my performance. Swimming is not for the Clever! I will never let my child swim!

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:48 am

I did a specific set 5x100m for preparing the 5K event will be on 25th February. The interval was not so tight (i.e I decided to do on 1:35 then didnt want to budge from my pace.

22.01.2017 - Sunday (7000m, SCM)

Warm up:
200m

Set:
50x100m int.1:40 (avg:1:18, best:1:14, SPL:16)

Recovery:
100m

Kick (with kickboard):
800m (16:15)

Pull (with ankle bands):
800m (11:48)

Cool down:
100m

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:56 am

Today's workout:

31.01.2017 (SCM - 4000m)

Set(Average 100m pace test)
4x100m freestyle with 70% effort, Rest:10" (average 1:23)

Decision: Tempo trainer mode2 was set to 21 seconds for each 25m.

Main Set:
8x400m freestyle (tempo trainer mode2 @21 seconds - 1:24/100m pace - SPL:16-17) Rest:@21

300m drills

Sprint Set:
4x25m freestyle max speed, int:35" (SPL:16-17, average:15")

Notes: In the main set I could hold the 1:24 pace up to 250m then rest for one beep(21 seconds) and completed the repetitions. In the last 3 repetitions I didnt fail at all. When I complete this set with no fails I will challenge the 1:20 pace for the same set.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:27 am

01.02.2017 - Morning Session - SCM - 4000m

Ladder Set (no extra rest between the sets):
1x500 Int:7:30 (7:17)
2x400 Int:6:00 (5:48, 5:46)
3x300 Int:4:30 (4:18, 4:19, 4:16)
4x200 Int:3:00 (2:45, 2:44, 2:46, 2:42)
5x100 Int:1:30 (1:19, 1:18, 1:21, 1:22, 1:17)

1 minute rest

Average 5K Pace Test: 500m with ankle bands (total:7:12,  estimated 5K pace:1:26/100m)

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by s.sciame on Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:16 pm

Good solid sessions NC. Longer reps sometimes are boring and mentally tough (counting laps itself can be challenging when fatigue builds) but they also build confidence.

Are you also monitoring your heart rate during or in the end of these sets? What's your ideal HR range for a 5k effort?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:33 am

I am not checking my heart rate during and at the end of the sets.
I dont know my ideal HR.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:07 pm

05.02.2017 - Sunday (SCM - 6000m)
500m freestyle swim, easy effort, focusing on high elbow catch and pull (7:24)
1000m freestyle one arm drill (one arm extended the other arm pulling) (25m left / 25m right) (15:32)
1000m freestyle one arm drill (one arm by the side the other arm pulling) (25m left / 25m right) (16:48)
1000m freestyle doggy paddle drill (15:11)
1000m freestyle fist drill (14:47)
1000m freestyle ankle bands drill (14:08)
500m freestyle kicking with board (10:06)

I swam with some of my swim pals. This was a nice technical session. I am glad to swim 1000m 14:08(1:25/100m pace) with ankle bands with a moderate tempo, according to this indicator I reckon that I can hold 1:22 pace during a 3K race. In masters world championships' 3K open water race event which will take place in Hungary 11 th of August 2017 I am aiming at sub 41 minutes, my training routine goes in line with my estimation right now.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

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