Nightcrawler is Back!

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:23 pm

Curious how your new stroke will work out. I trhink februari is a bit too early to have adapted to another stroke, but until august probably is plenty of time left.
Just a stupid guess.

About the rotation thing.
Since using , stretching and twisting and extending ny upperbody in relation to the hips to the max, I think I understand better what you mean by rotating through the core und not through the kick.
Its totally obvious that improving range of motion and powering  through this motion in this part of the body is important.
Certainly for guys who get older, otherwise everything starts to get stuck, making you swim like a robot.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:41 am

Today's workout session:
07.02.2017 - Tuesday (6:25-7:40 - SCM 4000m)
20x75m crawl int:75" (avg: 60", SPL: 16.5)
200m drill
20x50m crawl int:50" (avg: 39", SPL: 16)
100m drill
20x75m crawl int:25" (avg: 18", SPL: 16)
50m drill
Test1: 400m (5:28, SPL:16.5, Pace:1:22)
50m drill
Test2: 200m (2:39, SPL:16, Pace:1:20)
30 pushups + 30 leg raises + 30 squats

Hi smootharnie,
Actually m new stroke technique is working fine both in short and long distances. I dont kick in the distances over 200m at the expense of 0.5 more stroke(SPL), i.e in 200m my SPL is always 16 because I am kicking especially after the turns, but in the distances >= 400m I am abandoning kicking and focusing on high elbow catch and pull in the water with more rotation in comparison to 200m, this results in half more stroke(instead of 16 I am passing each lap by 16.5 strokes), but it worths, because I am swimming more economical than the stroke I am kicking, this i s almost my all-day-pace. My sustainable stoke rate (stroke period) is around 0.93 seconds per stroke, I have the intention of decreasing this down to 0.85 by maintaning the same technique, but I think it will take quite a lot of time.

Swimming is insane, never let your children swim! Very Happy

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:12 am

Huh?
You are more or less back to your minimal kick stroke but have gained 1-2 strokes/25 m?
What are you doing diffent now?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:55 pm

SA wrote:Huh?
You are more or less back to your minimal kick stroke but have gained 1-2 strokes/25 m?
What are you doing diffent now?

With my ex technique I was swimming with 20 spl but now with 16 spl (4 strokes per lap difference).

I have been doing the below:

1) I increased my wattage (by doing dry land fitness workouts at home while watching tv - manmakers, abb exercises, exergenie, squats, lunges, push ups, asissted pull ups at the door, etc).

2) Improved my high elbow catch and pull technique(with proper rotation) for teaching my body the proper rotation and high elbow pull I did one arm drills.

3) I havent missed any session, swimming average 28 km per week, reaching thousands(let average 50 repetitions per day then 50reps*60days=6000reps in total for each movement) of manmakers, exergenie pulls, squats, lunges, pushups, pullups, crunches, leg raises, planks, jump ropes since 2 months with no days off.
Mon: dry land cardio at home
Tue: Swim(4K) + dry land cardio and power workout
Wed: Swim(4K) + dry land flexibility exercises
Thu: Swim(4K) + dry land power workout
Fri: Swim(6K) (2 sessions) + dry land power workout
Sat: Half Session(2K)
Sun: Long and Harsh Session (>5K)

4) Also since then I have been using some supplements (beta alanin, creatine monohydrate, arginine, multivitamins, magnesium and zinc).

That's it! It needs quite a lot sacrifices (waking up at 5:30 everyday even at the weekends). Have been always walking angry, hungry and thirsty, dreaming my technique while sleeping, footaging my under water movements in the water, thinking about what to do special to achive maximum performance in the following session, etc, etc...

5% improvement requires 50% extra effort in swimming. It is really insane, never let your children swim!

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:02 am

Impressive dedication Nightcrawler!

Do you have some underwater footage of you before after underwater action?
I am a bit of an arm pull nutcase.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:01 am

I dont have new footages, but in this month after the race I have the intention of taking some footages in order to see my mistakes, be sure that will share when I record. Also share your videos if you have; I can help you better to correct your mistakes if I see your stroke.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Adivio on Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:03 am

Hi Nightcrawler,

Absolutely insane training program! Congrats for being able to follow it every day.
I hope it will bring the desired results so keep us posted.

No wonder then that my swimming is stuck when only swimming 4 times a week and
around 10k. My problem is that I train in several sports with focus on running which
is progressing very well, by the way. I have hit every training pace so far and I'm
on the right way towards the under 3h marathon. I wish swimming as this "easy".

Adrian

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:36 pm

Thanks Adivio.

Here are the today's sessions:

(10.02.2017 - Morning Session - SCM 4100M)
Set1: 20x75m int:75" (avg:60, SPL:16.5)
Recovery: 150 drill
Set2: 20x50m int:50" (avg:39, SPL:16)
Recovery: 100 drill
Set3: 20x25m int:25" (avg:18, SPL:16)
Recovery: 150 drill
Test1: 400m (5:31) (SPL:17)
Test2: 200m (2:45) (SPL:17)
Test3: 4x25m int:40 max. (15,16,13,14, SPL:18)

(10.02.2017 - Afternoon Session - SCM 2000M)
Set1: 5x200m WITH ANKLE BANDS int:3' (avg:2:46, SPL:17)
Set2: 5x200m int:3' (avg:2:44, SPL:17)
A FOOTAGE FROM THE SET2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxTSzqFlico
(select the high video quality from the options)

My all day(5K-10K) pace is now set to 1:22, I feel very comfortable with this pace, also not bad for masters open water swimming all around the world. I am glad to achive this, my next step is 1:20 in 3 months, I will keep on doing my workouts with no days off...

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:38 pm

I see a difference. Am I allowed to comment?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:40 pm

sure!Smile

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:48 pm

You nailed it man!
Finally that sloppy slippy pull is almost gone. Seems you dig deeper and have better traction on the water there now.
Big connection with the other side is better too. Everything between front and rear of body is having a better balanced power distribution wih a nice full twist from front to back.
Do you only feel that the stroke has become more powerfull, or does it feel more streamlined also when extending forward?
It still can be a bit deeper and extending further as far as it is looking from above, but your switching from one side , anchoring , and going to the other side looks fuller and more solid.

Marc Evans is not so popular nowedays, and talks a bit too much, but here he is 100% right I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyyzWF4w8xI

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:22 pm

Thanks for your comments SA.

SA wrote:
Do you only feel that the stroke has become more powerfull, or does it feel more streamlined also when extending forward?
It still can be a bit deeper and extending further as far as it is looking from above, but your switching from one side , anchoring , and going to the other side looks fuller and more solid.

i am feeling more solid, extending my arms more and so that feeling more streamlined. As for the deep catch(that they say), i dont mind it, i m watching my arms during extension and be sure that in each stroke i m doing the high elbow catch and pull, at this phase i am not bending my wrist, i m focusing on bending the elbow by rotating the shoulder. I m on the right way in terms of both my workout framework and my technical improvement, expecting better results soon.

During the extension i am gliding more in comparison to my old technique:) as you see, glide is not a bad aspect as ss claimed! It had been a good lesson for me to understand not to respect and nevermind the people's claims(comments) who dont have swimming experience as much as mine and also who are not swimming in an upper level than me. I recommend you to be your own coach too.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:06 pm

extending the shoulder and arm forward while setting up the catch is a focus envolving process that has very little to do with a static glide, only perhaps on extreme low strokerates.
If you listen to SS description about this on their smooth  stroke type video they say it that way. Thats the differnce with the overglider.
I stepped into this dark swim labyrint and have made it a challange to come out of it without a roadmap, only on perception and an internet connection.
Maybe some time I will beat your ass Nightcrawler! In my perception our strokes are not that different.

dont think going under 16 is usefull. Make this the new normal and get stronger and faster.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:02 pm

SA wrote:
Maybe some time I will beat your ass Nightcrawler! In my perception our strokes are not that different.

dont think going under 16 is usefull. Make this the new normal and get stronger and faster.

Lets see your stroke then, why are you hiding it from us? Very Happy  

You can develop your speed until the age of 16, if you had swum until then(look at LTAD). After 16 years of age swimmers work for maintaining their speed for longer distances. My treahold is 1:15 per 100m for long distances, this means that i can develop my sustainable pace for over the 1.5k distances upto 1:15. Is10:00 for 800m good for a man? no, never, Janet Evans swims 8:40 at the age of 42! so swimming is a waste of time, must be just a hobby, so dont pay attention on also dont pay for SS guru and for its other rubbish staff, they cant make you swim by 1:15 pace(which is also not a good pace), they are making this not for hobby but for money, also there is no sound proof behind their theories such as swim types or CSS or choppy punchy technique or smooth technique, everyone knows Popov or Phelps but they are giving the example of Jono Van Hazel for swim smooth type, i bet that ℅99 of the swimmers havent heard his name when i had told about, their reactions were "whos that i have never heard"...Smile on the other hand, i am protesting such amateurs who are criticizing the technique of swimmers', likewise without catching a fish they have no right to criticize fishermen! How SS dares to criticize Ian Thorpe's technique, who is SS? nothing, they are also not approven by any assocoation.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:29 pm

Weekend sessions:

11.02.2017 (2700m, SCM)
1500 easy (21:14)
20*50m int:1:10(avg:33", best:30")
200 easy

---------------------------

12.02.2017 (6400m, SCM)
3*{
20*50m int:50" (avg: 39") AvgSPL:16.5
1000m (14:08, 14:02, 13:53) AvgSPL:17
} no extra rests between sets

Test: 4*100m R:45"(1:14, 1:12, 1:13, 1:11) AvgSPL:18

My average 1000m pace is 1:24 which is poor for a long distance swimmer. The pace of an open water swimmer should be at least 1:15 for public races. My ex slippy sloppy technique works better in long distances, gives a better pace around 1:20. In my new technique which is based on longer strokes cannot be maintanable for the distances above 400m. I am feeling the necessity of increasing my SPL(strokes per lap) from 16 to 20 while swimming 1000m.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:11 pm

You could be back to the old  problem:  paddles, fins whatever, I always swim the same speed.
If you are not faster with paddles, why would having a better natural catch without paddles make you faster?
Are you just more efficient swimming in a lower gear, or do you need more time to adapt?
You are the coach,  I have no idea.

Maybe switching a bit between the 2 styles to let some muscles rest a bit , use others for a while and go back?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:57 pm

It is due to one reason with one word: "qigong"
which is the explanation of inner energy in martial arts.

In other words, capacity, talent, ability of overall power usage...
Swim speed is determined not by technique but by power which is coded in our DNA.

I have always been a talentless and a weak swimmer, thats it, no explanation further this!

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:19 am

What happens when using your long stroke for longer distance? Does it drain your energy and are you getting sloppy after a while?
A longer stroke needs more strength and precision is my experience. Feels great if you are fresh but can wear you out pretty fast too.

Not the optimal mindset to start a race where you are in now. Only thing you can do is  believing in mind over matter, do the best you can and stay positive.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:24 am

SA wrote:What happens when using your long stroke for longer distance? Does it drain your energy and are you getting sloppy after a while?
A longer stroke needs more strength and precision is my experience. Feels great if you are fresh but can wear you out pretty fast too.

Not the optimal mindset to start a race where you are in now. Only thing you can do is  believing in mind over matter, do the best you can and stay positive.

When using my long stroke for longer distances like 400m after the first 50m(16 strokes per lap) my efficiency of traction (power) starts to decrease(17-18 storokes per lap) and need more strokes to sustain the same pace.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:53 am

we all know that problem.
I guess the differnce of yoor starting strokelength and you ending  shouldnt be too large. A rocksolid strokelegth is the only true strokelength.
Testing what can be sustained during a race distance and keep the range between 1 -max 2 strokes.
Well,  you know that stuff better than me.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:11 am

In the open water I cannot measure the SPL ofcourse, but if I train with tempo trainer in the pool with proper stroke rate(i.e 0.90 mode1) and proper SPL in line with this stroke rate, which is suitable and sustainable for me in the 400-800-1500m tests, I may have chance to maintain that stroke efficiency(DPS) in the open water with the same stroke rate.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by s.sciame on Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:53 pm

Hi NC, fwiw I believe you did a good job in training a longer stroke, even if it is still less sustainable than the old stroke over long distances. In open water, given that you cannot count SPL and SR and that you'll have 5k in front of you, you'll probably settle to your most comfortable gear automatically and, having trained a long stroke, chances are that your autopilot/comfortable stroke won't be too short.

At least you now have 2 strokes in your toolbox and you can switch from one to the other at will. The long stroke for instance is wonderful when drafting behind another swimmer or when current assisted.

Salvo

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:58 pm

Hi Folks,
Thanks for your stimulating remarks, this race will be a good experience for me, if the system works for 5k, i m going to use the same method for the 3k(hungary, world masters champs). i m not pushing hard n the trainings feom this moment, trying to recover nowadays and getting rest for the 5k.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:45 am

14.02.2017 - Evening Session
Easy swim with my swim pals in 50m pool. Did drills and easy kick sets around 4km.

(15.02.2017 - Morning Session - SCM 4100M)
Set1: 20x75m int:75" (avg:58, SPL:16-17)
Recovery: 100 drill
Set2: 24x50m int:50" (avg:38, SPL:16-17)
Recovery: 100 drill
Set3: 24x25m int:25" (avg:18, SPL:16-17)
Recovery: 100 drill

SuperSet(no extra rests between the sets)
4x75m int:69" (avg:57", SPL:16-17)
4x50m int:46" (avg:36", SPL:16-17)
4x25m int:23" (avg:17", SPL:16-17)

After yesterday's double session interesting but today I swam with a 1:16 average pace. I am getting faster not I m recovered but I am tired!
There is a saying in Turkish: "one nail drives out another" I am going to keep doing double sessions till the race... No retreat no surrender!

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:57 pm

A nice video of that I like for you, Petar Stoychev technique:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fk2yM3iLIg

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

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