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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by s.sciame on Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:09 pm

Hi NC, your point on TI and SS is pretty clear Smile Today I found in the pool a dozen of 14yo rockets hitting 1:05 on the 100's and :30 on the 50's. They know nothing about TI or SS, they don't need it. This stuff is mostly for adults with no swimming background. I actually didn't mean that you're following or should be following TI. I only said that the approach you're following (ie maintaining the same SPL with slightly increasing cadence) sounds quite similar to Terry Laughlin's (he does this for ages). Now I don't really care who invented this and other types of training - I'm well aware that TI and SS didn't invent swimming. What I care instead is to try things and see what works best and what doesn't for me, regardless of brands.

So let's talk about what works. I looked at your chart above and I found it interesting but something is not clear to me: as far as I understand your final cadence will be 0.9, and you'll get there by increasing AND decreasing cadence as described in the chart. I suppose that in the days you'll be decreasing cadence you also expect to hit a better SPL? And how come SPL is not an integer? How do you measure 17.1 SPL for instance?

Salvo

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:42 am

s.sciame wrote:

So let's talk about what works. I looked at your chart above and I found it interesting but something is not clear to me: as far as I understand your final cadence will be 0.9, and you'll get there by increasing AND decreasing cadence as described in the chart. I suppose that in the days you'll be decreasing cadence you also expect to hit a better SPL? And how come SPL is not an integer? How do you measure 17.1 SPL for instance?

Salvo    

Pool is a synthetic environment you can extent more and adjust your stroke as you wish. From this point, it is obvious that SPL cant be integer in real. 17.2 for instance means, complete the lap with 18 strokes, but 17 of which is clear, push only 20% effort for the 18th stroke which means have 20% potential decreasing from 18 to 17 strokes.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 am

A triathlete who wants to go from 6 min 40 for 500m to 6 min for 500m by the old fashioned coached way.
The german coach is very critical about all kinds of flaws, but look at the difference how this guys swims between  the 16 min and the 16 min 55 mark after some tips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9slgOG14s
Starts to look like a typical elites stroke.

this overview is als pretty grundlich but nothing new for nightcrawler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40wYKjSd9r0

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Adivio on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:56 am

maintaining the same SPL with slightly increasing cadence

This is exactly what jono does as well: SPL stays around 32 per 50m from 0:43/100m to 1:07/100m.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs

Is this then one of the "secrets" of faster swimming? Maintain the SPL and increase the cadence?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:48 am

It is not that simple, unfortunately.

Briefly we are making masturbation Adivio! Sad but true!  Very Happy

Let me explain in detail...

SR is related with only the SPL, formula for 25m pool:
SR = Pace/{SPL*(100/25) + (100/25)*3 + [(100/25)-1)*2]}

In this formula;
100=100m
25=25m pool
100/25 = 4 laps for 100m in a 25m pool
3= 3 beeps for push of wall
2= 2 beeps for turn

For instance; let SPL=18 then SR = 0,92.

SPL is related with only the efficiency% and efficiency is related with the natural pace (not with the SR as TI and SS guys tell - because they didnt interpreted the formula well). If you are faster then you are more efficient, that is it, not more! Let be the world record pace(57 seconds) for 1500m is the 100% pace. Then according to the proportion the efficiency table for 1500m event will be (note that this table will vary according to the event and stroke - 50-100-200-400-800-1500):
PACE(seconds) EFFICIENCY
150 0,3800
149 0,3826
148 0,3851
147 0,3878
146 0,3904
145 0,3931
144 0,3958
143 0,3986
142 0,4014
141 0,4043
140 0,4071
139 0,4101
138 0,4130
137 0,4161
136 0,4191
135 0,4222
134 0,4254
133 0,4286
132 0,4318
131 0,4351
130 0,4385
129 0,4419
128 0,4453
127 0,4488
126 0,4524
125 0,4560
124 0,4597
123 0,4634
122 0,4672
121 0,4711
120 0,4750
119 0,4790
118 0,4831
117 0,4872
116 0,4914
115 0,4957
114 0,5000
113 0,5044
112 0,5089
111 0,5135
110 0,5182
109 0,5229
108 0,5278
107 0,5327
106 0,5377
105 0,5429
104 0,5481
103 0,5534
102 0,5588
101 0,5644
100 0,5700
99 0,5758
98 0,5816
97 0,5876
96 0,5938
95 0,6000
94 0,6064
93 0,6129
92 0,6196
91 0,6264
90 0,6333
89 0,6404
88 0,6477
87 0,6552
86 0,6628
85 0,6706
84 0,6786
83 0,6867
82 0,6951
81 0,7037
80 0,7125
79 0,7215
78 0,7308
77 0,7403
76 0,7500
75 0,7600
74 0,7703
73 0,7808
72 0,7917
71 0,8028
70 0,8143
69 0,8261
68 0,8382
67 0,8507
66 0,8636
65 0,8769
64 0,8906
63 0,9048
62 0,9194
61 0,9344
60 0,9500  ( if 57 is 100% then = 57/60 = 95% = 0,95)

SPL= (25-PushOffFromTheWall) / (Armspan*Efficiency)

Your natural pace determines your natural SPL and SPL determines your SR.

ALL IN ALL, the starting point is the "natural pace" or simply the "pace". There is no proper and simple definition for the pace, it depends on your DNA code. So that, TI guys mistaken in this point. If they were right then any TI guy could be swimming sub 1:00 100m free.

TALENT (LET IT CALL THE "DNA") is the only essential thing, if naturally you were born to be fast, you will swim fast...  Organizations such like both SS and TI are mistaken, they are surrendering themselves to  "COGNITIVE DISSONANCE", they believe it so much, drowning by their own marketing passions, so that not aware of/cant admit the realities Very Happy

TO SMALL EXTENT(ABOUT 10%) YOU CAN IMPROVE YOUR PACE BY PLAYING WITH THE SR BUT THAT SR(AND OFCOURSE THE PACE) GOING TO BE ARTIFICIAL AND BE SPOILED EASILY WHEN YOU GIVE UP EVEN 1-2 DAYS. IT TAKES MAY HOURS AND QUITE EXTREME EFFORTS LIKE DEADLY 5 YEARS TRAINING WITH DOUBLE SESSIONS (10.000KM IN 5 YEARS) FOR MAKING THAT PACE NATURAL, BUT OF COURSE IT HAVE TO BE IN THE YOUTH YEARS LIKE 15-NOT AT THE AGE OF 19+.

A real life example from my young club years(when I was 15-16 years old):
Most of my teammates and I were swimming 29 seconds 50m and 13 seconds for 25m. One day a 13 year kid came to our club, that was his first time in the pool. He even didnt know any stoke technique, swimming head outside with sinky legs, but it was interesting that he could swim 1-2 laps behing us. Out coach realized him and asked for a 25m try. He swam 12 seconds. Then out coach gave us 10x400m set, took him to the 1st lane and dealth only with him. In a year he swam the 100m free 53 seconds and 4:18 400m free, took scholarship to the USA and flew away.

Due to this lack of talent reason, many of my friends didnt insisted on being a swimmer, gave up swimming in the age of 16-17 and started any other sports like rowing, bodybuilding, running, triathlon. I did triathlon and became successful in it than the swimming but sports except swimming didnt satisfy me and gave me relaxation like swimming sı that decided to swim for fun and fitness, improved only %3-4 since then and attending to local ow events for fun.

I recommend the new people to determine reasonable goals in swimming then it will be more joyful for them.
We cannot change Fiat500 car to a Ferrari Very Happy

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Adivio on Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:58 pm

Nightcrawler, I don't want to be a Ferrari. Maybe a VW Golf turbo diesel Smile.

So yes, I have no dreams of breaking any world or country or even village records in the pool. Just want to improve myself, get faster every year in the triathlon context. I guess it should be an easy target as my current times stand at 1:18 per 3.8Km and around 30 for 1.5 km.

Would it be impossible for me to swim 1:10 and maybe 25-27 for 2.5 in a couple of years? Am I asking too much? Wink

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:25 pm

Changing Fiat500 to VWGolf1.6TDI is also impossible, maybe Fiat500 to Palio  Laughing

Pace is mostly related with Efficiency.
Efficency is related with:
1) Physical Properties
2) Swimming Technique
According to my experience deduced from 30+ years of observations Pace is determine by 80% Physical properties and 20% by Swimming Technique.

For your situation I can say that;
Harder to improve from 00:55 to 00:53 but easier to improve from 1:50 to 1:40. For master swimmers impovement depends also on the current performance regardless of age (where 55 years old elite master can swim faster than the 30 year old beginner). What is your average 100m pace at the moment? Write me your average pace and armspan(cm), I can tell you a starting and a target point. santa

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Adivio on Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:07 pm

Smile

When I said 1:18 and 1:10 I meant 1h18min and 1h10min for the 3.8km.

Do you mean time for 100m all-out effort? Didn't test this lately. I think I can do it between 1:35-1:40 in 50m pool, open turn, wall start. Faster in 25m pool.

Arm span? I need to measure it when I get home.


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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:17 pm

avg 100m pace for 3.8k

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by s.sciame on Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:42 pm

SA wrote:A triathlete who wants to go from 6 min 40 for 500m to 6 min for 500m by the old fashioned coached way.
The german coach is very critical about all kinds of flaws, but look at the difference how this guys swims between  the 16 min and the 16 min 55 mark after some tips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9slgOG14s
Starts to look like a typical elites stroke.

this overview is als pretty grundlich but nothing new for nightcrawler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40wYKjSd9r0

So what's the message behind these long german videos?

Salvo

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:02 pm

i think he is emphasizing the core stability

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Adivio on Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:54 pm

Wingspan is 185cm. 2:06/100 for the 3.8km. I am faster in the pool, perhaps 2:00 /4km.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:31 pm

I think you can aim at 1:50 pace.

In a 50m pool you should maintain 48 SPL with 1:00 SR and try to achieve 1:50 per 100m.

With this effort try doing the following sets at least 3 times a week:

30x100(target:1:50, SPL:48+48) int:2:15
if cannot, then first start with
50x50m(target:53, SPL:47) int:1:10

Good luck.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:59 pm

So what's the message behind these long german videos? Salvo wrote:


Salvo

Tips for  the triathlete in the first video

Tighter core, tighter kick, less hip swinging, enter hand under angle, find anchor point and push all the way back from there with much force.
Higher head is better for streamline, surfing a bit on the upperbody according to this coach.

Regarding swimtalent. So whats exactly that swimtalent? Its not only a big engine.
In some way its difficult to transfer all your power to the water like its natural to do on dryland.
Looks to me these guys find a way to do it quite easy like a normal guy can transfer his power to a rowing machine without trouble.
Sure these guys also have a big engine but its still quite mysterious what exactly makes the difference.
When you see good swimmers demonstrate how to swim badly it still looks good and fast whatever flaw they are demonstrating.
There is something thats underlying their stroke thats more important than those superficial stroke flaws.
According to Brett Sutton, swim talent and speed in kids is highly determined by the traction they achieve on the water. The fastest kids slip the least. Thats a natural good DPS without resorting to gliding.
They can handle the water just as easy as we move forward on land.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXhFL0VJmec (14 min 45)


Last edited by SA on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:23 pm

There are different types of fish which swim with different paces, even same kind 2 fishes swim with different pace, same kind of dogs or horses living together and eating the same food but running with different paces, etc... human like so, nobody could have explained and could have shown the pace formula yet.

You have been searching the truth for ages, could you find it?

It is nothing more than the DNA, cannot change a gastby to an eagle by hardworking(training).

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:29 pm

I am not giving up yet! Very Happy

Still finding new things, but all swimmers are saying that while not getting faster, so you could be right.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:43 am

SA, how many times a week do you swim and what is your average total distance per week? Do you have any videos?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by SA on Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:42 am

about 3 hours a week. Never have seen a video, only a reflection form a mirrorlike poolbottom.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Adivio on Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:52 am

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler Yesterday at 18:31
I think you can aim at 1:50 pace.

In a 50m pool you should maintain 48 SPL with 1:00 SR and try to achieve 1:50 per 100m.

With this effort try doing the following sets at least 3 times a week:

30x100(target:1:50, SPL:48+48) int:2:15
if cannot, then first start with
50x50m(target:53, SPL:47) int:1:10

Good luck.

Thanks a lot Nightcrawler! So I can then reach 1h10, that's great news Smile.

Unfortunately I don't have 3 times a week available, max 2 for me to decide the plan.
Then 2 with the squad.

30x100 int: 2:15 is very doable. All in all it would be ~1h07min. Last year I was doing 3km red mists in 1h in the 50m pool. That was in May. Then the swimming schedule became more irregular culminating with the 4 weeks holiday when I couldn't swim much. Right after that I had the IM. This is how I explain the worse than expected result there Wink.

48 per 50 is very much within my reach as is the 60 SPM you are suggesting.
One question: 48 SPL + 1 SR would mean 1:40 for 100 m. You set the target for 1:50. Did I misunderstand something?


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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:30 am

3 secs push off + 48strokes*1.00 + 2 secs turn + 3secs push off + 48strokes*1.00 = 1:48~1:50

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Adivio on Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:31 am

yes, of course. Forgot about the pushoff and turn. Thanks for the explanations Smile.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by Adivio on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:40 pm

Nightcrawler, at the moment there is only 25m pool available. How would this set 30x100 translate to 25m? I could try it tomorrow morning.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by s.sciame on Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:01 pm

nightcrawler wrote:

A real life example from my young club years(when I was 15-16 years old):
Most of my teammates and I were swimming 29 seconds 50m and 13 seconds for 25m. One day a 13 year kid came to our club, that was his first time in the pool. He even didnt know any stoke technique, swimming head outside with sinky legs, but it was interesting that he could swim 1-2 laps behing us. Out coach realized him and asked for a 25m try. He swam 12 seconds. Then out coach gave us 10x400m set, took him to the 1st lane and dealth only with him. In a year he swam the 100m free 53 seconds and 4:18 400m free, took scholarship to the USA and flew away.


Interesting story. Could we say that one good way to test our swim potential, our swim "DNA", is to test that fast 25m? Which perhaps is also the distance where we all have the least room for improvement. Something like show me your best 25m and I tell you where you can go, does it make sense? As an adult beginner orientated to distance swimming I never paid attention to my best 25m time. Perhaps it's worthwhile to test it every now and then, don't know.

NC, how much did your 25m time improve over the years?

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:27 pm

My 25m time is remaining the same. DNA doesnt change.

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Re: Nightcrawler is Back!

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:43 pm

of course 25m time is not only a measure. 50-100m times should also be considered.

actually, to measure your talent/potential you can ask yourself that how much distance you have swum and how much you have improved since then? if you have been swimming 5 years and swam 5000km in total and still cannot swim a 100m sub 1:10, then it means that you are not for swimming. 25-50-100 times not only short distance indicators but also should better be taken into account for long distance events. for examle a swimmer who has maximal 1:15 100m time cannot maintain 1:30 pace in 800-1500-5000 events, may hold 1:40 which is a very weak performance for 5 years of work.

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