CHALLENGE 50/100 m

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:01 pm

cottmiler wrote:This Sailboat Drill is the first drill in Dave Scott,s video in the thread "Dave Scott,s Quick Catch".

Though the examples shown have a rather short hesitation; perhaps this is for triathletes, who typically have a weak kick?
As recommended by Ed Sinclair, a standard pattern is 6-1-6, that is, while the arm is posing, do around 6 kicks.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:12 pm

Further to that drill: Perhaps indeed it makes sense to distinguish between the two forms:
- "hesitation" really means "hesitation" (short), not a "pause"
- while the "sailboat" really "sets a sail", and thus there is a pause (long).

For me, the Sailboat is right, since one purpose is to practice also the kick, so doing in fact *at least* 6 kicks with the hand waiting in front, short before entry, and absolutely avoiding sinking (this needs the strong kick).

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:21 pm

Hi all, is anyone in the challenge yet? I'm keeping this thread alive in case you should forget Smile

Yesterday I was reading this "chlorinated" article and I wanted to share it with you, it's a good pre-weekend reading:

https://www.yourswimlog.com/how-fast-are-you-swimming-in-practice/

Did you like Popov's funny story? Beside this, I agree on what the author says about frequently trying full blast efforts. About not "saving up" the great swimming for when you feel in "perfect conditions".

Happy swimming everyone,
Salvo

PS: current progress 33.5, 1:13.5 (from pushoff. From the blocks is work in progress Smile )

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:29 pm

s.sciame wrote:Hi all, is anyone in the challenge yet? I'm keeping this thread alive in case you should forget Smile

I sense you are feeling pretty strong Cool

s.sciame wrote:
Yesterday I was reading this "chlorinated" article and I wanted to share it with you, it's a good pre-weekend reading:

https://www.yourswimlog.com/how-fast-are-you-swimming-in-practice/

Did you like Popov's funny story? Beside this, I agree on what the author says about frequently trying full blast efforts. About not "saving up" the great swimming for when you feel in "perfect conditions".

In general, I can understand the direction.

But currently that's not appropriate for me. The last two months I had problems in the right shoulder, a long-lasting inflammation. Didn't fully prevent me from swimming, but much reduced, and very reduced intensity.

Hopefully this will have a happy end: now that the overrotation is gone, and I can focus much better on the pull, it became very clear to me that there was an underlying long-standing issue. Such shoulder problems had been going on intermittently for many years (but much better since I do rotator-cuff stuff). And it produced a pull with "holes" in it: to avoid the pain, I either did/do drop the elbow, or turn the hand in, or open my fingers (typically something from everything). Due to the long history, of course some muscles are weakened, others take over. It's really a strange beast, different for both arms (due to different shoulder problems), and also ever-changing. Some problems I remember from my Kung Fu training already 35 years ago, had to do certain evasive movements (especially with the accompanying strength training). These problems explode when going to a really high stroke rate, and the pull becomes extremely inefficient.

I decided to finally fully confront this problem. After every swimming sessions doing 20-30m (in the pool typically) various exercises with elastic bands, really going INTO the pain (whenever I find a place with pain, and there are various, different left and right, go into it, with a reasonable intensity). Seems to work, slowly I am getting better. (Possibly also anti-rheumatic inflammation treatment via Lyprinol helped here --- very soon after I started taking it I had such a very intensive improvement.)

Definitely I have now a better perception of how I avoided the pain in the past, by the various evasive movements. Not so easy to get back the small muscles involved, but I am optimistic. Instrumental here the much reduced rotation -- too much noise otherwise!

A bit strange the reaction of the coaches in retrospective: there was always this strange thing, that I would underperform at some pull-related exercises, and looking at the videos, the evasive movements are now very clear to me. But perhaps other issues overshadowed this (there was always some comment by the coaches, but nobody really confronted the issue). With my last swim clinic the coach again noticed my strangely weak performance for some exercises with the elastic bands, but again didn't fully challenge that, but kind of looked away ("strange thing").

Hopefully until the end of July it really gets much better. Since then I go for two weeks to the
Best Centre
http://www.bestswimcentre.com/sports/masters-2/
in Mallorca, not a camp, but only 1-1 sessions and video analysis: the plan is, finally I understand where I want to go (say, roughly, old-fashioned sprint style), and I know and feel all the components, but they are fleeting and hard to fully integrate -- now this hopefully will be further developed, and then hardened. Just having one coached session every 3-6 months (1-1 session) seems not enough to really do the transition: problems like the shoulder problems pop up, some parts of the stroke degenerate, and you do not really notice that. Hopefully being nearly 2 weeks under supervision makes a difference.

s.sciame wrote:
PS: current progress 33.5, 1:13.5 (from pushoff. From the blocks is work in progress Smile )
HO HO, not too bad for [and now my colloquial English isn't good enough, don't know an appropriate phrase one could use here; searched the Internet for a long time for, say, the big mafia boss confronted by the boss of a rival gang, or the alpha wolf challenged by a young wolf, but couldn't find anything Sad so well, your job to fill in this bracket Very Happy ] (at least there should be very different emoticons, some roaring lions say, more toughness, not just that endless smiling and hand-clapping and whining).

Why don't we have the big final showdown at the European Masters Swimming Championships 2018 ?
http://theswimforum.palstani.com/t80-european-masters-swimming-championships-2018

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:47 pm

For the final showdown, to create the right mood set see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuUWq7qGSro
(but our TI adepts might better not watch that!).

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:56 pm

Sprinter wrote:For the final showdown, to create the right mood set see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuUWq7qGSro
(but our TI adepts might better not watch that!).

hahaha, hey I left the forum last friday in nearly sleep mode and the day after I found it on fire Very Happy

I hear you on shoulder issues, every now and then it happens to me as well. Fortunately not to the point to have to quit swimming but I have to go easier and/or make technical adaptations. The last time was in the end of April: after a session where I swam with a (too) high elbow catch I started feeling a mild pain on the front of the shoulder and it lasted a lot of time (up until recently). Even now I still have to be careful on that shoulder when I lift weights (my daughter) on a certain way. And yes, high elbow catch combined with over rotation is a killer for shoulders.

About the "final showdown", I was thinking about starting small with some local master meets in the next fall and see if I like them (and get some official times as well). I actually would prefer entering the 800's and 1500's but in my area (Rome) you have only one event per year over these distances (they use to call them "special distances"...). I guess I'll do some 400's and 100's then. The world of master is strongly orientated toward the shortest distances. That's one of the reasons why I recently got some more interest on this 50/100m challenge, though I still see myself as more of a distance/ow guy and I don't even train like a true sprinter (don't like to rest more than 20s at the walls). Another reason is that I got convinced that from a "decent" 50/100 you can build whatever you want - ie show me you can go somewhere then let's decide what to train for. Last but not least, I got sick of hearing that adult beginners cannot get to 30/1:10 Wink

Salvo

PS: you may like this link:

http://www.egswim.com/ne/RatingTime.html

One thing I like of pool swimming is that you can easily compare yourself to anybody all over the world remotely

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:02 am

s.sciame wrote:
I hear you on shoulder issues, every now and then it happens to me as well. Fortunately not to the point to have to quit swimming but I have to go easier and/or make technical adaptations. The last time was in the end of April: after a session where I swam with a (too) high elbow catch I started feeling a mild pain on the front of the shoulder and it lasted a lot of time (up until recently). Even now I still have to be careful on that shoulder when I lift weights (my daughter) on a certain way. And yes, high elbow catch combined with over rotation is a killer for shoulders.

It seems actually a long-going issue for me, and hopefully with much more rigorous exercises, a strong improvement is possible.
In this sense, I take the recent outbreak as a chance (wake-up call), to finally address this issue. (By the way, I don't worry about bringing the elbow close to the surface -- I don't believe in it in general, and especially for masters it seems inappropriate.)

An interesting aspect here: The recent crisis affected, on the right side, the beginning and the finish of the pull. The problems with the beginning, where in reply to the pain/weakness the shoulder drops, is a long-standing one. Don't know about the finish. Perhaps this comes from the specific inflammation of the tendon.
Correspondingly to the finishing-problems, I did only light triceps training in recent time. Last Friday it felt better, and in my session with my personal-fitness-coach (two hours per week), for the triceps-rope-pulldown I thought to use "the usual weights", 4 sets with 12 reps each -- but for the last set, instead of moving the weight I nearly felt over (what happens when you expect to move something but it doesn't move). Hmm, didn't remember exactly what I used in the past, so well, perhaps I never did that before. Alright, next day at home with my rack, I did triceps-pushdown with the usual weight, not light, but 12 reps not a big problem -- and couldn't do a single one! Aha, wasn't really fully aware of that, though it's natural, in combination with pain and avoiding certain movements, muscles can decay relatively quickly. Now yesterday in the pool, for the pull I felt the "return of finishing phase" on the one hand, and the definite weakness here! Again, somehow I knew that the finishing phase was diminished, but the body gets very quickly used to a new "normal", so that in the last weeks I couldn't "fully understand" (really feel) why I was so slow -- but yesterday I could finally feel that aspect. Hopefully that all returns (and much better than before Twisted Evil ).

So also growing the body-awareness is an important (and interesting) part of swimming. So many old problems, so many new changes (say due to injuries) go (nearly) unnoticed, Though there seems to be always some trace, but at least for me, when I first encounter the problem, I always think "come on, that's nothing". My body seems very cunning in deceiving me! At some point something very funny happened to me: I was swimming, kind of noticed something (don't remember what it was), but my body said "don't worry, that's nothing" -- and then I really kind of stumbled (while swimming!), due to a sudden very clear vision from a scene from the film "Antichrist" of Lars von Trier, where she, when confronted about a past (devilish) wrongdoing regarding her son, answers in a very very characteristic soothing way, something like "oooohh, didn't notice thaaat" -- and I noticed that exactly in this way my body was speaking to me!! HAH, I told my body, NOT WITH ME!! And I found that altogether quite hilarious.

Another area of very weak body awareness is in my legs. Likely that had practical advantages: they just did their stuff in the past, nothing special, weren't challenged much, and then at least they didn't cause much problems. Last week I was also very slow with my kicking (around 20% slower than usual), and couldn't figure out what's going on. A had then a massage, where I was told that my left leg was very tight -- and the next day speed was back to the usual level. I definitely felt the good feeling of a "flowing kick" when speed was back, mostly with the up-kick -- but for the legs on their own, say you are sitting, I didn't feel anything (before and after).

s.sciame wrote:
About the "final showdown", I was thinking about starting small with some local master meets in the next fall and see if I like them (and get some official times as well).
I am relatively sure that I won't like it: you have basically no warm-up! But that doesn't matter to me: I like travelling, I like hotels, I like to have something specific to do, and I like the preparations.

s.sciame wrote:
I actually would prefer entering the 800's and 1500's but in my area (Rome) you have only one event per year over these distances (they use to call them "special distances"...). I guess I'll do some 400's and 100's then. The world of master is strongly orientated toward the shortest distances.
Organisation of the longer distances is so much harder! You need constant supervision of every swimmer, and for 1500m that means watching every swimmer for 30 min (or longer!). And all of that work is done by unpaid (or lowly paid) volunteers. The short distances are so much easier.

s.sciame wrote:
That's one of the reasons why I recently got some more interest on this 50/100m challenge, though I still see myself as more of a distance/ow guy and I don't even train like a true sprinter (don't like to rest more than 20s at the walls).
Coaches say that you need the courage for longer rests (with the shorter rests you never go all out).
Though currently, due to all these problems, I don't go all out myself (except for the legs!).

s.sciame wrote:
Another reason is that I got convinced that from a "decent" 50/100 you can build whatever you want
Perhaps that's especially true for guys like us, late starters -- the technical problems are best attacked with fast swimming.

s.sciame wrote:
PS: you may like this link:
http://www.egswim.com/ne/RatingTime.html
One thing I like of pool swimming is that you can easily compare yourself to anybody all over the world remotely
Interesting, thanks.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Tom65 on Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:50 am

16 seconds for 25 metres this morning, pushing off the wall.
Breathing every 4, breathing every 2 is obviously unnecessary for 25 metres, breathing every 3 seems to slow me down.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:50 pm

Some update.

Making progress with the recovery from shoulder/arm problems. Some way to go still.

Left arm, right leg, my greatest weaknesses (currently).

I also did pull out too quickly -- need to find more power in the final push phase under water.

Can now reasonably stable do the 25m in 15s, using 100 strokes per min.

My first official race, 50m in 25m pool: so well, wasn't disqualified ;-) 35.5s -- screwed up the turn, ended nearly in the neighbour lane. But that's how it is. It's not so easy to have a wait time of at least one hour, and then just jump into it and swim 50m. On the positive side, the thirty-something are over in the blink of the eye, only very vague memories of some shades, and something happening at the turn, that's it. But that likely means the worst aspects of your stroke come out -- slipping like crazy.

More experience is needed ...

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:28 pm

Sprinter wrote:

My first official race, 50m in 25m pool: so well, wasn't disqualified ;-) 35.5s -- screwed up the turn, ended nearly in the neighbour lane. But that's how it is. It's not so easy to have a wait time of at least one hour, and then just jump into it and swim 50m. On the positive side, the thirty-something are over in the blink of the eye, only very vague memories of some shades, and something happening at the turn, that's it. But that likely means the worst aspects of your stroke come out -- slipping like crazy.

More experience is needed ...

Well done Sprinter! How was the start? My main concern would be to keep the goggles in place...!
About the race, it was a local meet I suppose: did you have to affiliate to a master squad (and maybe train with it) in order to participate? For this season I wanted to affiliate to my local master squad and train with them but they now moved away to a far location, too bad.

Salvo

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:09 am

s.sciame wrote:
How was the start? My main concern would be to keep the goggles in place...!
That's the easy part. Arms in streamline position, and from the block (which in fact is easier!) just go straight forward, that'll do (roughly) the job.

Best to practice is at least once with a coach, finding out whether left foot or right foot forward, or old-fashioned both feet parallel.
For me it seems left foot forward works best.
Likely for most adult starters, a rather shallow dive is fastest (definitely for me), with just 1-2 quick dolphin movements, and then starting a good kick.
Once this is decided, find a pool with blocks and allowed usage, and then do your session where after each 50m (in case of 25m pool) or 100m you climb out (of course the good way) and dive in -- in that way you are getting used to it (and that's also a good exercise).

Likely I was somewhat late with my reaction, but I guess over time that'll improve.

s.sciame wrote:
About the race, it was a local meet I suppose:
A bit strange the pool, only 1m deep at one side, and with strange light. For bigger meets it seems they start requiring in the UK some qualifying times, so likely best to start new distances/styles in small meets.

s.sciame wrote:
did you have to affiliate to a master squad (and maybe train with it) in order to participate? For this season I wanted to affiliate to my local master squad and train with them but they now moved away to a far location, too bad.
No affiliation, but "individual membership" -- as far as I know, every European country should offer that (though I have the feeling they don't like that, and thus don't advertise it -- it took me a few months to get that membership).

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:29 pm

Sprinter wrote:

Can now reasonably stable do the 25m in 15s, using 100 strokes per min.


Good point. I suppose you could hit 15s also at slightly lower rates (which are more sustainable over 50m), but perhaps this would be less repeatable, right?
This is what happens with me: on a very good day I can hit 15s at 92SPM and 21SPL (or 20SPL if I glide into the wall). On less good days there is no way I can hit 15s using that gear, I just take 1 more stroke and I can't help. But fortunately, if I keep raising the stroke rate and go above 100SPM and don't care if I look less and less like a swimmer and more and more like a t-rex, at some point I always get back to 15s flat and this is by far more repeatable than it is at 92SPM.
So, on one hand I think it doesn't make much sense to practice sprinting at rates which are far from being sustainable after the turn. But on the other hand, most of the times the fastest and most repeatable/reliable way I can sprint at is the waterpolo/t-rex style. Today for instance I did a descending set starting from 84SPM and I only began hitting 15s flat at 108SPM: from that point on I always hit 15s and in the last rep at 120SPM I could even go sub 15s, which is a new PB. At these rates it's less about technique and more about power.

Here is an interesting analysis on elite 50m freestyle metrics:

https://coachrickswimming.com/2015/07/02/elite-50-freestyle-are-we-swimming-this-wrong/

From the second chart we can see that swimmers' rates usually decrease in the 2nd half of the race (only Manaudou holds steady 59 cycles ie 118SPM, but his DPS drops a lot as well, see 3rd chart). Moreover, sprinting like Popov, with a relatively low stroke rate and a long stroke, is not for us. I think a good model to follow instead could be Gary Hall Jr: hold your fastest rate during the first 25-30m, then let stroke rate naturally drop but try to hold DPS (ie avoid spinning the wheels). In this fashion, practicing sprints at super high rates could make sense.

Salvo

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:17 pm

s.sciame wrote:
Good point. I suppose you could hit 15s also at slightly lower rates (which are more sustainable over 50m), but perhaps this would be less repeatable, right?

In general, I don't worry about "sustainability over 50m": I don't believe in the Dogma of the Constant Speed (see below), and I believe for myself, that in principle 150 strokes per minute should be fine.

However, for me repeatability, interval training in its various forms, trying to increase the stroke rate etc. belong to a phase where the basic technique is fixed, and one tries to make it stable and possibly a bit faster. And, especially since in August I had a 2-week training with 1-1 coaching in Mallorca, I think now that finally I understand my stroke, AND I realised the two main physiological obstacles for me:
1. Defective left arm -- likely since 3 decades a bending-problem, leading to evasive movements and wasted muscles, which I now attack directly.
2. Defective right leg (perhaps induced partially by the left arm not pulling well).
Concerning the fundamental technique, I understand now much better how to apply force (but it is missing yet) with the pull, and with the kick.

So I am "searching again". The plan is at least until beginning of 2018 to stay in a modest stroke-count realm, and trying to improve the fundamental movement patterns, and trying to project more and more power with the pull and with the kick.

Hopefully I am finally(!) converging. And once I "found it", then I can start the cranking.

Hopefully I can reach 13.x sec for 25m.

s.sciame wrote:
This is what happens with me: on a very good day I can hit 15s at 92SPM and 21SPL (or 20SPL if I glide into the wall). On less good days there is no way I can hit 15s using that gear, I just take 1 more stroke and I can't help. But fortunately, if I keep raising the stroke rate and go above 100SPM and don't care if I look less and less like a swimmer and more and more like a t-rex, at some point I always get back to 15s flat and this is by far more repeatable than it is at 92SPM.
Yes, I know that: for low stroke counts the form of the day matters much (but fortunately this is also rather predictable now, just depending on the state of the muscles, very little on the "mental state"). With quite high stroke rates it is much more stable. With very high stroke rates then again it depends on the freshness.

I don't believe that it makes much sense, to make a hierarchy between *different* techniques. There is no gold standard. I think one should use the term "technique" only relatively, for a given system of swimming.

s.sciame wrote:
So, on one hand I think it doesn't make much sense to practice sprinting at rates which are far from being sustainable after the turn.
I don't think one should consider that. Our bodies are so far from "the optimum", that it doesn't make sense to perform such calculations. If you don't train for it, you don't get it.

s.sciame wrote:
But on the other hand, most of the times the fastest and most repeatable/reliable way I can sprint at is the waterpolo/t-rex style. Today for instance I did a descending set starting from 84SPM and I only began hitting 15s flat at 108SPM: from that point on I always hit 15s and in the last rep at 120SPM I could even go sub 15s, which is a new PB. At these rates it's less about technique and more about power.
My current understanding is that I have to build up strength with slower stroke rates (currently only doing 66 SPM to 100 SPM). Once I feel I have developed more strength, we can see.

As I wrote above, I believe that the technique like water-polo has to be considered in its own right. It is not a "lesser technique", or "less technique".

s.sciame wrote:
Here is an interesting analysis on elite 50m freestyle metrics:
https://coachrickswimming.com/2015/07/02/elite-50-freestyle-are-we-swimming-this-wrong/
To me that looks like a perfect example of dogmatic thinking: the guy searched apparently quite hard, to find finally ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE where a more constant speed had won (by chance one would say).

So ALL OTHER CASES are different. Obviously you must conclude from that that 50m sprinting is won NOT by constant speed.

But who cares about reality, if you have your dogmas.
Here the dogma of the "constant speed".
Perhaps there is also the dogma of "woman" (whatever they do it must be "great").

s.sciame wrote:
From the second chart we can see that swimmers' rates usually decrease in the 2nd half of the race (only Manaudou holds steady 59 cycles ie 118SPM, but his DPS drops a lot as well, see 3rd chart). Moreover, sprinting like Popov, with a relatively low stroke rate and a long stroke, is not for us. I think a good model to follow instead could be Gary Hall Jr: hold your fastest rate during the first 25-30m, then let stroke rate naturally drop but try to hold DPS (ie avoid spinning the wheels). In this fashion, practicing sprints at super high rates could make sense.
 
Since I am back to a developmental phase, currently super-high rates aren't for me. But it seems in principle I have a talent for them, so hopefully I can come back to them (with more power).

I think most important is to look very closely at YOUR STROKE. Forget about what others are doing. It seems we have still a lot of possibilities to improve fundamental capabilities. The fine points (strategies ...) are perhaps best left for later.

And your stroke is in different phases. So it seems natural to me to have phases with emphasis on fitness, higher stroke rates etc., and other phases with emphasis on lower stroke rates, more power, experimentation.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:21 pm

Second race result (SCM): 33.7 for 50m.

This time I deliberately "didn't do anything special". Just made sure that I was on the black line, and did a kind of defensive turn. Otherwise didn't pull too hard.

Warm-up medium-hard swimming for around 15min, 2 hours before the event. A few minutes before just a bit of arm swinging.

Hard to say what really went one. A pity that there are no recordings. Dive felt alright,  but I was not jumping hard (on purpose). Approaching the wall, i.e., the barrier, I lifted (deliberately) my head -- since it was just a barrier hanging into the water, I wanted to make sure that I don't miss it (so to speak).

The only technical aspect I watched (somewhat) was straight long arms on narrow entry. Don't know what the legs were doing.

With some training I guess I should be able to maintain that for 100m. At the next (local) meeting I'll do also the 100m.

With that time I should now be safe for participating at the European Masters September 2018.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Don Wright on Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:27 pm

Just perusing this stuff out of interest - I know it's all way beyond me - but was interested in "Sprinters" comment in one of his posts : -

'Sprinter wrote:...Main emphasise was on the pull. Now I know rather well what for me is the appropriate style: NOT an early high elbow! But classical style, with a strong push (via the triceps) below the body. So the power phase is NOT early, but late.
This seems also to be the most appropriate style for late starters.

Because this "chimed" with what I try to do with the up-sweep on my non-breathing side when FS-ing.  I use an EVF  catch  for most of my FS "variants" so basically I have "lost" part of the UW propulsive horizontal traverse that is possible for the hand, because I drop hand/forearm as a complete unit (as per Sheila Taormina's recommend).  So really the useful propulsive UW part of the hands path is from a point immediately below the high elbow, as far back as a point immediately below the hand's exit for recovery. But it is during that up-sweep I feel one can forcefully fling or push the water backwards with the stroking arm - and it feels to me, as if there is more power in that up-sweep stage of the arm's movement than in the earlier pull phase.  Of course, if one uses a a shallow "curl-the-hand-over" shortly after arm's water entry, to grab an early catch - then there is not so much loss of UW path traverse.  Must admit I use this when doing my little bit of "almost full arm catch up" variant so as to give a longer pull-through of the stroking arm.  But in both cases (early "curl-hand-over", and EVF catches) - flinging the arm back during the up-sweep on the non-breathing side does seem to impel one forwards more!  It is not so easy to do on the breathing-side - the inhalation "distracts" one I think (or perhaps am not so good at "multi-tasking")!

In "Sprinters" same post as above, I saw his passing reference to getting rid of over-rotation, which again reminded me of an old surmise that the faster one is able to swim FS, the better/smoother is the bow-wave trough - making it easier to inhale ("almost" UW because of minimal neck turn) without the need for much rotation! Smile  Have noticed this effect when (trying!) to go faster inhaling on every 4th arm stroke - so that inhalation does not disturb things so much as when inhaling more often.

Don Wright

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:16 pm

Sprinter wrote:Second race result (SCM): 33.7 for 50m.

This time I deliberately "didn't do anything special". Just made sure that I was on the black line, and did a kind of defensive turn. Otherwise didn't pull too hard.

Warm-up medium-hard swimming for around 15min, 2 hours before the event. A few minutes before just a bit of arm swinging.

Hard to say what really went one. A pity that there are no recordings. Dive felt alright,  but I was not jumping hard (on purpose). Approaching the wall, i.e., the barrier, I lifted (deliberately) my head -- since it was just a barrier hanging into the water, I wanted to make sure that I don't miss it (so to speak).

The only technical aspect I watched (somewhat) was straight long arms on narrow entry. Don't know what the legs were doing.

With some training I guess I should be able to maintain that for 100m. At the next (local) meeting I'll do also the 100m.

With that time I should now be safe for participating at the European Masters September 2018.

Very good Sprinter, a relatively easy 33.7 sounds promising. Do you have the splits and have you an idea of how much you gain from the dive vs starting from a pushoff?

Salvo

s.sciame

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:58 am

s.sciame wrote:
Do you have the splits and have you an idea of how much you gain from the dive vs starting from a pushoff?

No split times available, unfortunately.

When comparing dive versus pushoff, one should also take into account that "dive" typically means a proper start, which means you have to take your reaction time into account, while a pushoff typically is measured without that.
Under that perspective, and given that at least for the time being I don't try to leave the blocks as quickly as possible, I think there is not much of a difference.

I will now start in my training, which was for some time now mostly concentrating on getting the fundamentals right (the power projection), doing more fast 50m's, some more interval training (25m), and re-starting medium-fast 100m's.

Still fighting with some basic problems, but altogether I believe I have now a reasonable understanding ("theoretically", what I SHOULD do, and "practically", what I ACTUALLY do), and so I can start hardening the style.

2 weeks ago I did one 50m with 100 strokes/min in the 50m pool: first 25m fine, a bit faster than 15s, but then my enemies (I can't go more into details here, as you likely understand) took control over the beeper and switched it to, say, 200 strokes/min (only for the second 25m, resetting that after I finished -- they are clever!), which resulted in around 21s for the second 25m.

In other words: I also need to train more without beeper -- constant stroke rate is not natural for such short distances (at least!), and the feeling for the speed needs to be developed.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:24 am

Don Wright wrote:
Because this "chimed" with what I try to do with the up-sweep on my non-breathing side when FS-ing.  I use an EVF  catch  for most of my FS "variants" so basically I have "lost" part of the UW propulsive horizontal traverse that is possible for the hand, because I drop hand/forearm as a complete unit (as per Sheila Taormina's recommend).  So really the useful propulsive UW part of the hands path is from a point immediately below the high elbow, as far back as a point immediately below the hand's exit for recovery. But it is during that up-sweep I feel one can forcefully fling or push the water backwards with the stroking arm - and it feels to me, as if there is more power in that up-sweep stage of the arm's movement than in the earlier pull phase.  Of course, if one uses a a shallow "curl-the-hand-over" shortly after arm's water entry, to grab an early catch - then there is not so much loss of UW path traverse.  Must admit I use this when doing my little bit of "almost full arm catch up" variant so as to give a longer pull-through of the stroking arm.  But in both cases (early "curl-hand-over", and EVF catches) - flinging the arm back during the up-sweep on the non-breathing side does seem to impel one forwards more!  It is not so easy to do on the breathing-side - the inhalation "distracts" one I think (or perhaps am not so good at "multi-tasking")!

I don't understand what you mean with "up-sweep".

Are you sure you are actually doing an "early vertical forearm"? That is very difficult to do, keeping the elbow close to the surface. And also just a HINDRANCE -- from what I heard coaches saying, the only reason to do that is to reduce drag, and that only plays any role for speeds faster than, say, 1:20 / 100m. Below that the small reduction in drag is irrelevant -- but you are loosing power big time. A different thing is an early BEND in the elbow -- that is for most people indeed important for speed, since it prepares the pull. If you drop the elbow, or let the straight arm drop to the bottom, then the power phase starts very late.

I guess what you mean with "up-sweep" is the push-phase of the "pull" -- and then "up-sweep" is very misleading. I did the mistake, thinking of getting the hand out of the water as essential for a long time, and that prevented me from developing a strong push-phase. When I had 2 weeks individual coaching in August, we finally got to the bottom of it: it is much more productive to COMPLETELY FORGET about getting the hand out, but you need to concentrate on pushing under water BACKWARDS, NOT upwards! At the end, getting the hand out, is a minor detail.

More and more I see how much of the discussion of technique, at least on the Internet, focusses on minor details, which might (or might not) lead for a FULLY DEVELOPED swimmer to improve say, from 22s/50, to 21.9s/50m, which might make the difference in the very tight competition. But they apparently NEVER talk about the basics -- they take that for granted. And indeed, for their "usual" swimmer, the gifted young athlete, those basics are built in their "subconscious" phase of development, swimming hard 2 sessions per day, and that for years (99% of the young swimmers are thus ignored). That has NOTHING to do with adult learners.

For learning the push-phase, doggy-paddle is indeed very useful, best done with a snorkel (so not to be distracted by breathing).

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

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