under-rotation?

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under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:26 pm

Hi all,

after some interesting conversations with Sprinter about body rotation in a couple of other threads here, I wondered about this: given that a front snorkel can be a valid tool to fix some stroke flaws including overrotation, I noticed that my shoulders often get uncomfortable when using the snorkel for more than 200-300m continuously. I don't have any problem when swimming without snorkel, shoulders feel always relaxed at any pace and any distance. My doubt then is that I may under-rotate (ie swimming too flat) when using the snorkel.

Here I have 2 videos from 30/11/2016:

Above water view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdoSpDbYwNc&feature=youtu.be

Under water view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xuy1fkwjvZs&feature=youtu.be

Do you guys think this is too little rotation for a relaxed recovery or do you find anything that could hurt shoulders? Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Salvo

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by cottmiler on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:24 pm

I don,t think you could swim this flat in open water. You would need a lot more air under the recovering arms.

SA,s essay on "scapular plane" explained the problem of taking the arm back past it,s natural range of movement.

Is the right hand entering as cleanly as the left?

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:34 pm

your right arm is pressing quite some water down, the left also some. Room for improvement. yeah, you can swim faster! The elbow is dropped a bit at the start of your stroke.
Pressing water down is bad for your shoulders for a start and waistes arm force as you know.
Normally I dont object to some S in the stroke , but i think yours is too much.
First you break the rotation in you arm entry thats almost on the centerline, than you move the arm to the outside, followed by more inside -outside slightly wobbly action.
I think its better to straighten and simplify the movement more. A bit too much vague sculling action.
Enter a bit wider , spear deeper over the barrel really at the front outside edge and also push your shoulder forward and down on top of the barrel while you arm goes down even more.
Think wide, wide forward reach, curving with arm and shoulder over the barrel. If you can feel the water flow from your fingertips to your elbow while the weight of the body is sinking a bit forward on this curved paddle its good. Than think pull straight back to the end. You will keep some S I guess.
Its obvious why you like the deeper spear. This will probably grab you more water than you are doing now at the front.
You have to spear deeper, but try to get your shoulder over it while you push the shoulder and arm down.
The waterpolo way instead of the TI way. This way you can grab  more water with a faster catch.

Your left arm is barely clearing the water.
Your kick can be smaller, and the connection trhough the core with your shoulders tighter.
The shoulder can rotate more relative to the hip. you can use some more roll, but not more hip roll.
Hip drive doesnt need much hip roll and much kick amplitude. Think of Bruce Lees one inch punch.
Is all a bit too much spaghetty midsection. Too much movement going to waste instead of minimal movement maximum effect.
More planks training.

You know I  compare you with an elite swimmer.
in one sentence: keep it simple and tight.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:44 am

You are doing basically constantly the finger-drag drill with your recovery (but without the high elbow, and rather tense as it looks). As far as I can tell from your other videos, you do the same *without* the snorkel.

According the my experience there is a relation to shoulder problems (could be cause or effect). Perhaps you try, as technical exercises and in a controlled way, to get your arms higher out of the water, and truly relaxing the arm and hand when doing so. See how that feels. Your recovery looks tense to me.

I would work on shoulder flexibility. More rotation would be a poor fix I believe.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:03 am

s.sciame wrote:
Do you guys think this is too little rotation for a relaxed recovery or do you find anything that could hurt shoulders? Any comments are appreciated.
Salvo

I have to remind that Rehabilitive and Competitve swimming are different from each other. If you want to do the first one, pay attention on the rotation and high elbow/hip driven style, meet with Adam Walker or Terry Laughlin, do meditation and yoga with them...

But on the other hand if you want to achive a good pace for an open water or a pool race (it makes no sense - race pace must have both high cadance and strong mechanics), limit your rotation/extension and add more power+cadance to your kick and pull, this time shoulders/knees may hurt, because naturally pain is the nature of every discipline. Simply; no pain no gain, everything has a price.

Just try a 8x50m freestyle on 40" (targeting 35" for each), observe what happens to your rotation. You will see that in tight and tough conditions rotation followed by a nice long extension will not work.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by cottmiler on Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:20 am

nightcrawler just said :

"this time shoulders/knees may hurt, because naturally pain is the nature of every discipline. Simply; no pain no gain, everything has a price."

Not good NC.

A bit of muscular pain is fine but permanent shoulder damage is not.

Paul Newsome has had to pull out of a big race recently because longstanding shoulder damage from breathing one side only in the past has re-appeared.



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Re: under-rotation?

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:26 am

I am stating the same Cottmiller.
"Do not try jumping from the plane for flying unless you have wings!"

P.S: I do not pay attention on the ideas of amateur swimmers and marketing super-heros like Paul Newsome who has questionable career and also possesses a major flaw in his character.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:53 pm

Thank you so much pals, all of you provided valuable feedbacks as always.

@Cottmiler: yes, right hand entry is less clean. I'm left handed and used to play tennis for several years in my teens, so my left side (arm, shoulder, lat, leg) is stronger and more coordinated than the right side BUT less flexible. When I played tennis my left lat was noticeably bigger than the right one. Now they are the same size but the left one stretches less than the right one. When you play tennis you do a lot of powerful movements which tend to close the chest, while in freestyle swimming you want an open chest instead. In a way, tennis agrees more with boxe than swimming, maybe I should change sport Smile

@SmoothEagleEyeArnie: absolutely agree with all you noticed. I'd really like to get rid of that S shaped pull: I think "straight" but the arms do something else, don't know why. That video is of last November, hope by now I mitigated this issue a bit. I'm also trying to spear a little deeper and leave the hand there. I like this "push your shoulder forward and down on top of the barrel while you arm goes down even more", it's something I'll pay attention to (perhaps it also aids the other shoulder raise more, clear the water more).

@Sprinter: I compared my snorkel/non snorkel videos in detail (also other videos that I didn't post) and actually the basic action is the same. The only differences are the breathing strokes where I rotate more. Recovery looks tense but, as I said, w/o snorkel I can swim all day and the shoulders feel fine. I came to the conclusion that those frequent breathing strokes "save" my shoulders with the poor fix of more rotation. It's the lazy solution, though I believe it's not too bad as long as the hips remain rather flat (talking about distance swimming here, not sprints). I already work on shoulder flexibility and proud posture with open chest and shoulders back... on dryland. I should pay attention to it in the water as well. Some broken arrow drill when warming up may help. The snorkel here will be my tester: when I'll be able to swim all day with the snorkel and my shoulders won't complain, perhaps my upper body mobility will have improved.

@NC: I'm doing the work, I'm currently on SET3 Smile

@All: back to the rotation theme which triggered this thread. With a lot of upper body mobility (think of Michael Phelps when he's on the blocks and claps his hands behind the back), one could swim rather flat and still have one shoulder/scapula clearing the water and perform a relaxed recovery with high elbow (but not behind the scapular plane => no shoulder impingement) and enough hand clearance above the water. The less flexible the upper body the more we need to rotate to compensate, or alternatively do a low straight arm recovery like some triathletes do - basically the butterfly recovery applied to freestyle, another workaround.
Some recommend not to rotate more than say 30-45°. Ok, but if rotate only 30° and also have to keep the elbow inside the scapular plane, the hanging forearm/hand will barely clear the water no? To have more clearance (w/o exceeding the 30°) there must be a shoulder lift on top of this basic rotation. Not sure if this is something that comes by itself with flexibility or is a technical skill to learn (e.g. in backstroke the recovery must start from the shoulder, I haven't heard the same for freestyle). Any thoughts?

Thanks again everyone and sorry for the long post!
Salvo

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:10 pm

s.sciame wrote:
@Cottmiler: yes, right hand entry is less clean. I'm left handed and used to play tennis for several years in my teens, so my left side (arm, shoulder, lat, leg) is stronger and more coordinated than the right side BUT less flexible.
I guess you also do the typical chest stretches (which seem very important). I think if you monitor this asymmetry, and perhaps every session have a few minutes where your attention is focussed on the right arm, then over the years this will improve.

s.sciame wrote:
@Sprinter: I compared my snorkel/non snorkel videos in detail (also other videos that I didn't post) and actually the basic action is the same. The only differences are the breathing strokes where I rotate more. Recovery looks tense but, as I said, w/o snorkel I can swim all day and the shoulders feel fine.
One gets used to being tense (I used to hear from physiotherapists: "you are so unbelievably tense, how can you be so (relatively) flexible???"  Twisted Evil ).
But the tension is there, lurking under the surface, waiting ...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/bc/29/9a/bc299a3d5134fa6bb6baa41645251168.jpg

s.sciame wrote:The snorkel here will be my tester: when I'll be able to swim all day with the snorkel and my shoulders won't complain, perhaps my upper body mobility will have improved.

One definitely should not forget about the easiest solution (which is sometimes the best):: just don't swim longer distances with the snorkel without rest.

You swim with the snorkel as an exercise. Just doing 25m's is sometimes too short, but to me 50m seems a reasonable distance to "get into it", while still concentrating on the issue. So 100m should be fine, then have a rest, relax, and redo ...
Swimming long distances perhaps defeats the purpose of the exercise, it becomes "junk lanes" ?

s.sciame wrote:
@All: back to the rotation theme which triggered this thread. With a lot of upper body mobility (think of Michael Phelps when he's on the blocks and claps his hands behind the back), one could swim rather flat and still have one shoulder/scapula clearing the water and perform a relaxed recovery with high elbow (but not behind the scapular plane => no shoulder impingement) and enough hand clearance above the water. The less flexible the upper body the more we need to rotate to compensate, or alternatively do a low straight arm recovery like some triathletes do - basically the butterfly recovery applied to freestyle, another workaround.

I think it's just "simple, as usual": one has to work to get it better (here, gain more flexibility), but compromises are needed, and to find out what's best needs experimentation.
One also has to keep in mind that things change, and after some time the issue needs to be looked at again.

My personal take on the recovery is: my hand starts the recovery, since I have emphasise on the last part of the stroke, and then the elbow takes over, using a relatively high elbow, relatively close to the centre-line. I am right-handed, and if I go for a high frequency, then there is a strong tendency that my right arm nearly makes a straight-arm recovery, very much via the centre-line, while my left arm with a very quick movements slurps over the surface; I am working to balance that, but I guess that's my signature pirat

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:38 pm

I am building more upperbody flexibility and control too.
For stretching you can lay an a floor stretch out one arm at shoulder with  forward with the elbow rotated up as a support (mimickeing high elbow entry and catch) together with your stomach, and try to rotate the other shoulder with a recovering arm movement as high up as possible.
Dont stabilise an your legs. lift then just a bit from the floor with a flat lowerback. Switch positon from left to right forward extension combined with shoulder twist/lift.
This gives a stretch through the trunc and is very much in line what you are doing in the water.
Try to keep the hips touching the ground while you twist the recovering shoulder up.
If you remember the tension this causes and try to redo it in the pool during your stroke. you might be surprised. how it feels in your stroke.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:39 am

SA wrote:I am building more upperbody flexibility and control too.
For stretching you can lay an a floor stretch out one arm at shoulder with  forward with the elbow rotated up as a support (mimickeing high elbow entry and catch) together with your stomach, and try to rotate the other shoulder with a recovering arm movement as high up as possible.
Dont stabilise an your legs. lift then just a bit from the floor with a flat lowerback. Switch positon from left to right forward extension combined with shoulder twist/lift.
This gives a stretch through the trunc and is very much in line what you are doing in the water.
Try to keep the hips touching the ground while you twist the recovering shoulder up.
If you remember the tension this causes and try to redo it in the pool during your stroke. you might be surprised. how it feels in your stroke.

Good, I'll try it. It's basically the kickboard-under-hips-drill on dryland Wink

Salvo

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:04 pm

Sprinter wrote:

s.sciame wrote:
@Sprinter: I compared my snorkel/non snorkel videos in detail (also other videos that I didn't post) and actually the basic action is the same. The only differences are the breathing strokes where I rotate more. Recovery looks tense but, as I said, w/o snorkel I can swim all day and the shoulders feel fine.
One gets used to being tense (I used to hear from physiotherapists: "you are so unbelievably tense, how can you be so (relatively) flexible???"  Twisted Evil ).
But the tension is there, lurking under the surface, waiting ...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/bc/29/9a/bc299a3d5134fa6bb6baa41645251168.jpg


Good point, that means I could eventually discover a new level of easiness and effortlessness Very Happy

@SA and NC: today I did a set NC may like:

60 minutes of 25m reps on disciplined 4s rest (with TT).

Throughout the set I mostly focused on SA's advice "push your shoulder forward and down on top of the barrel while you arm goes down even more" and it worked really well: good catch, good balance, almost no kick, steady 20SPL. The interval was 26s (coming in 22s). After 52 minutes I still felt fresh, so I committed to 19SPL (with some more push and some more kick) and swam the last 8 minutes on a 25s interval coming in 21s. I finished the set quite fresh (HR 132bpm) and with "good vibrations" Smile

Thanks SA!

Salvo

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:05 pm

Yeah exactly.
I think we both have had a bit too much TI influence Salvo. Too much hip drive focus and too little upperbody control, strength , flexibility and awareness of what muscle is doing what exactly.
I also tend to have a bit of a dropped elbow at the front because of being streamlined a bit too long before going into catch.
Its  crucial to get the transition from spear to catch right and get a good connection there with the rest of the body.

On dryland you can build up that internal body tension that is required to hold a stable twisted shoulder to hip posture.
The body shaping has to come from within because in the water it has to be done without any support.
So limit the support points to same points as you use in the water. From hips to exteded arm. Legs held up slightly.
Feels pretty hard to keep that position isnt it? Keep the elbow rotated up on that outstretched low side.
This uncomfortable tension must be relaxed for a guy like Phelps.
This is for swimmers who have had too much bottom up brainwashing.


Last edited by SA on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:37 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:12 pm

We will see if its just a new fad Salvo. At first you liked the loping thing also Wink

Mentally forget arms and legs for a moment and only focus on the movment of the shoulder and how its moves forward and backward gliding over the ribgage. How it can pulled back by back muscles. How it can be lifted and shifted forward.How one shoulder is moving down when the other is moving up.How you should lift the low side elbow to keep the arm on wide tracks while rotating the low shoulder down.
Increase and control that movement. Walk with the shoulders. Then mentally attach the locked in the water arms to that movement.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:27 pm

Salvo, well done, you did a great job. Nice and proper rotation I think. I may recomment you to increase the high elbow degree, that is to say, as soon as you once extend and catch the water dont waste time to maintain the extension, interrupt the streamline as much as quick to position the high elbow for the oull through, while pulling also use your scapular plane to roll to the other side to increase the pull force, this may benefit 2-3 seconds per 100m. You can work on this by using pullbuoy.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:36 am

SA wrote:I am building more upperbody flexibility and control too.
For stretching you can lay an a floor stretch out one arm at shoulder with  forward with the elbow rotated up as a support (mimickeing high elbow entry and catch) together with your stomach, and try to rotate the other shoulder with a recovering arm movement as high up as possible.

I tried it but I'm afraid it can ingrain the bad habit of lifting the elbow (and get it behind the scapular plane) instead of swinging it forward. To work on toracic spine mobility, wouldn't it be better to simply assume the plank position (better on hands than on elbows) and rotate one arm trying to point to the ceiling while leaving the hips as still as possible? Or eventually do the same movement from a kneeling position to make sure hips do not rotate (I know that in the water you don't have ground support, it's just to feel the right torsion). This is the typical toracic spine mobility exercise. Some foam roller massage on the toracic spine before doing the exercise may help too.

Salvo

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:48 pm

In the plank position the core tension is totally different as in swim position.
In swimming I lift the legs up also a bit. My body feels like gliding on the side of the stomach to the ribcage.
The low side has to be stable with the arm wide and the other shoulder is lifted from the stomach up to the point of the shoulder.
You can also hold the high arn straigt and imitate a straight arm recovery. Dont focus on the shoulder itself but on the part between hips and shoulder.
Well you get the idea.
I think its a good swim specific core stretching and strengtening dryland exercise combined.
Try to hold this twisted position for a minute. Not so easy.

With the manmakers you also strengthen the diagonal trunk muscles.

To avoid confusion.
I dont try to hiold my head on the floor. THere is a line between low and high shoulder and the head is in between. Lifted from the floor. My chin is above the low side shoulder and can touch it when i rotate haed to look at the low side.

The main problem with the long 6BK skate out into extension style is the transition to catch.
We are too weak too stiff, or too slow there to make that transition well, so we drop the elbow a bit.
We have to get that armpit and elbow on top to be stronger in that position.
remember Solar talking about Harry Wiltshire pushing Gonez down and back with the part between elbow and armpit.
Thats the action needed to prevent a dropped elbow and add power at the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1wnu0xzvjo
In the end it increases strokelength by adding shoulder movement and better tracktion at the front, despite shortening the stroke a bit at the front.
Its a matter of finding the right mix between the skate out style and this ball under the armpit style.
If you are strong you can lenghten out the Witlshire style again, keep the same rhythn,but still swim with 16 strokes/25 mm or someting.
I guess this is the best way for Nightcrawler also to get faster Wink

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:50 pm

Hi all,
some more thoughts about (upper body) rotation. Yesterday I watched again this famous video (see from 7:50):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb1Supmb2TQ&t=258s

then I did the same rehearsal in front of a mirror and from a standing position. When the elbow was behind the back plane I could lift it up to a point (shoulder impingement). When the elbow was aligned with the back plane I could lift it up to the top of my head (partial shoulder impingement). Finally, when the elbow was just a few inches in front of the back plane, it made all the difference: I could lift it freely higher than my head. Just a few inches made all the difference.

So we (or at least I) want to recover with the elbow just a few inches in front of the back plane (aligned with the back plane is already bad, behind the back plane is request for injury).

Given this non negotiable constraint, how much do I have to rotate the upper body? The least rotation which still allows my elbow to be in front of the back plane and the hand above water level (otherwise it would be a finger drag drill). Hips can stay flat or rotate less, but the upper body has to rotate this minimum to allow the full range of motion of the arms as Richard Quick shows. Agree?

Today I also tried again this very difficult drill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7vKqUSYZpM

To make it easier I used a snorkel and kept the legs still and closed to each other as if swimming with an ankle band. In this configuration I managed to complete a length without having the board slip away. I find this drill very useful to keep core control, learn the right amount of upper body rotation and get rid of all that bad hip overrotation many beginners have.

Another good way to do the same exercise on dryland could be to lay on stomach on the edge of the bed, with ribcage free to rotate. Fingers crossed behind the head, elbows open (just a few inches in front of the back plane), butt engaged, legs slightly lifted. Rotate, rotate, rotate while leaving the hips flat.

Salvo


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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:28 pm

I wonder whether in the above discussions not some aspects crept in, about which one should be fully aware. Namely that there are decisions to make, and these decisions might be very different if we compare the olympic swimmer and the late adult starter. In my opinion, the key decisions are, concerning the pull:
0. Nearly straight arm versus bend arm.
1. Early high elbow versus "late" high elbow.
2. Pull-power: early versus late (under the body).
3. Somewhat early exit of arm, versus full extension of the push (possibly with a final wrist-flap).
4. Broad arm-entry and pull versus narrow entry and pull.

Let's call these decisions D0a,D0b, ..., D4a, D4b.

Now D0a seems very rare, only done for true sprinting (by some sprinters), and seems necessarily to imply D2a, D3a (actually very early exit) and D4b, while D1 doesn't apply. Alright, so we have D0b.

Furthermore it seems that D2a implies D1a, while the other direction likely often holds, but perhaps not necessarily, since one might not pull hard at the beginning.
Further D2b seems to imply D3b.
One could imagine D2a combined with D3b, but in practice it seems that D2a comes with D3a: it might be hard to combine early power with later power, having it both.

So one cluster is D1a, D2a, D3a, and this seems to be the style as pushed by SA and NC.
The other cluster is D1b, D2b, D3b, the "old-fashioned style", supported by me, following a well-known German master's coach (no names, since many coaches strongly prefer not to be involved in such discussions).

It seems also that the "old-fashioned style" goes well with D4b, while for masters it seems that the "modern style" kind of enforces D4a, due to missing flexibility.

I think now that these decisions are rather independent of the rotation issue, where the basic decision seems to be:

5. Rotation as driving force of the whole swimming-motion versus rotation only as needed.

It seems that both of the above two styles can be combined with both options.
Following that German coach, I am now convinced that for "most masters" (without being able to quantify that) old-fashioned and rotation-only-as-needed are most appropriate.

Whatever Quick has to say on his swimmers -- what does this mean for people who started late, and furthermore don't have at all that amount of training as his swimmers have? My answer is: nothing, complete independence. The "master's question" needs to be raised -- and there seem to be zero serious studies on training and swimming methods for master's swimmers: the problem is that the variety is enormous, much much bigger than for the typical study group, some high level young swimmers, and furthermore, due to the obligations of the master's swimmers, it is very hard to observe them for a long time, and to enforce a certain training/swimming regime.

So I believe that an adult swimmer, especially when starting relatively late, has at some point to consciously make these decisions, and not much is really known.

If you now make the decision for the "modern style", then you should really observe/monitor what you gain. I don't believe it's a good decision, but it's your decision.

Just an example, but perhaps telling: That German coach, now in his fifties, does currently the 200m butterfly in around 2:20 and the 1500m frontcrawl in around 17:00. That quite reasonable, and he can do the butterfly. Nevertheless, when he races any form of frontcrawl, he doesn't do the modern form of dive, nor the modern form of push-off, with lots of dolphin-kicks, since he measured that he is slower in this way than the "old-fashioned style". But you see many masters who think they are faster with their frankly ridiculous dolphin-simulations.

Now for the dolphin-simulations, one can say that fitness-wise that can't hurt, and perhaps is even a good thing, since it increases the variety. So if you forget about speed, it seems that in general not much harm is done by that. However for the extreme early high elbow I have more doubts, whether this isn't very stressful. But I don't know -- You decide!

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:53 pm

I forgot one decision: how deep to dig in after the hand entry.
It seems best to have a straight movement, no wriggling around.
And the higher the frequency, the deeper the dig.
The rest seems to be a question of shoulder flexibility: the lesser the flexibility, the deeper to dig, in order to avoid to have the elbow lower than your wrist.
And even if one aims at improving shoulder mobility, so that perhaps at some point one can successfully stretching out the arm directly under the surface, until then you should avoid that (and perhaps for a late starter it is rather unlikely to achieve that).

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:35 pm

Just to be clear, I'm in the cluster B and I think what Quick says from minute 7:50 applies not only for his swimmers but for the vast majority of people.

Salvo

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:08 pm

Hm, it seems a wonderful reply of mine, which finally solved all questions about swimming, got lost. Evil or Very Mad

So well, what I remember is that also the part from 7:50 on in the Quick-video is hardly relevant for masters/adult learners, since the role-model has obviously an enormous shoulder-flexibility -- had he chosen a fifty-year old male without much swimming background, the whole focus would be completely different. I don't think that I can come anything near to the problems demonstrated, just lacking the flexibility to have these options in the first place.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:04 pm

I think lots of adults have zero  trunkmuscle awareness. Thats what I see in the pool at least.
Until you start to explore the extra range of movement you can give the shoulders by using all the muscles in the trunk in a controlled manner you havent reached your shoulder range of movement potential.
Its very easy to not use these available muscles. To twist and stretch through the core  feels pretty uncomfortable and strange at the start, and moving the upperbody while the hips rotate less also is a different action than bottom up swimmers are used to. You just can swim while keeping all those muscles unused. Look at a beginner doing backstroke. Stiff body and pathetic rotating arms. zero power.
This has nothing to do with young or old. Its just a matter of body control. Just like learning to hoola hoop.
I remember when first reading about squeezing the shoulderblades. I didnt know how to do it. Couldnt find the exact muscles. As if someone asked to move your ears.
People are totally degenerated in muscle skill. They only know how to press buttons.

Now its easy to windmil the arms in a (almost) true circle while the shoulders are slamming the ears and the body stays aligned.
There is a lot if improvement potential for most to explore.

if you rotate like this its easy to keep the elbow in front of the scapular plane Very Happy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zJSI0aoRfU

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:38 pm

SA wrote:I think lots of adults have zero  trunkmuscle awareness. Thats what I see in the pool at least.

But arms, hands, feet and legs are also not so easy. These statements "forget about your arms" might be mostly useful for advanced swimmers -- in the pool I see a lot of crazy arm movements. (One guy throws the arms forward like noodles -- but under the shower and elsewhere he appears to be completely normal, no disability visible.)

A "straight arm" is quite a complicated thing. I believe it is very useful from time to time to swim with fully straightened arm, felt by the tension at the inner elbow, and easier, by the blocking elbow. It can be really surprising how that suddenly feels.
And if already your arms and legs are bent, then you can't get the rest right.

SA wrote:
This has nothing to do with young or old.
It *should* be easier for young people. Hard to say from personal experience, but it seems to rapidly decay with young people. I watch every week after some swims some school children, likely in the range of 10-12, having swimming classes. And I have not seen yet a single child with reasonable swimming abilities. Most are really bad. Today two boys, quite overweight, perhaps around 12, trying to swim frontcrawl, lying flat on the stomach, hurling the arms and legs around, with nearly no resulting movement, and that over the whole time. Of course, teaching is also awful: nothing is ever shown, they never see a reasonable swimmer in the pool, just being told "now swim 15m" ...

SA wrote:
if you rotate like this its easy to keep the elbow in front of the scapular plane Very Happy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zJSI0aoRfU
Since he is preparing for the backstroke, and there the active rotation plays a big role, I guess he is also exaggerating it for the frontcrawl.

In general I agree with you. The role of "rotation" is perhaps that of a corset: It provides some trunk movement, some trunk stability, better than nothing! It's like a narcotic.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:48 pm

I believe it is very useful from time to time to swim with fully straightened arm, felt by the tension at the inner elbow, and easier, by the blocking elbow. It can be really surprising how that suddenly feels.

I agree. especially how to connect the arm acceleration with the body roll.(doesnt has to be massive  Wink ) You  just cant move the arms independant of the bodyroll with straight arms. it will make or break your stroke to get the acceleration and the timing right.
Superslowmo swimming with straight arms is great if it all works together. It forces you to keep your body and legs tight and aligned.

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