under-rotation?

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:58 pm

Sprinter wrote:Today two boys, quite overweight, perhaps around 12, trying to swim frontcrawl, lying flat on the stomach, hurling the arms and legs around, with nearly no resulting movement, and that over the whole time.
To add, that was a strange but somewhat typical experience: Watching it from the upper floor, which has a glass window, and you look directly down on the training pool (25m, 1.40 deep), while to the right of it you have the 50m pool. Nobody takes notice of it, the other people close to the window look into their laptops, or their mobiles, or talk, some look at the pool, without visible interest. You want to point at this: "there, LOOK, something needs to be done!", but nobody cares. You want to jump down into the pool, and show them how it works, but the 3 teachers don't take notice, entering some crosses into their tables, or whatever. Most pupils are able to somehow swim the 25m, that's it, some are not able, that's it. The most normal thing of the world. Is this the new pedagogic "everybody is a winner, nobody is worse or better than anybody else"? You better don't do or say nothing, otherwise the police might come after you ...

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:03 pm

SA wrote: I believe it is very useful from time to time to swim with fully straightened arm, felt by the tension at the inner elbow, and easier, by the blocking elbow. It can be really surprising how that suddenly feels.

I agree. especially how to connect the arm acceleration with the body roll.(doesn't has to be massive  Wink ) You  just cant move the arms independent of the bodyroll with straight arms. it will make or break your stroke to get the acceleration and the timing right.
Superslowmo swimming with straight arms is great if it all works together. It forces you to keep your body and legs tight and aligned.

Actually, this is a misunderstanding: I meant the straight arm for the arm extension after hand entry! Avoiding crossing over, and also avoiding the wriggling.

You mean pulling with straight arms. That's also a known exercise. From time to time I actually attempt to swim seriously with nearly straight arms, it's kind of fun, but I am not serious about it. You can also do then the whole package: full straight arm recovery, right over the centre, and nearly full straight arm pull -- not so easy Cool

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:56 pm

Guys, let's make it simple: Quick just says you can't swim flat if you don't want to break your shoulders during the recovery phase. To keep you shoulders safe during recovery, the elbow has to be in front of the scapular plane. This obviously requires a certain amount of body rotation.
What's wrong with this?

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:30 pm

s.sciame wrote:
@SA and NC: today I did a set NC may like:

60 minutes of 25m reps on disciplined 4s rest (with TT).

Throughout the set I mostly focused on SA's advice "push your shoulder forward and down on top of the barrel while you arm goes down even more" and it worked really well: good catch, good balance, almost no kick, steady 20SPL. The interval was 26s (coming in 22s). After 52 minutes I still felt fresh, so I committed to 19SPL (with some more push and some more kick) and swam the last 8 minutes on a 25s interval coming in 21s. I finished the set quite fresh (HR 132bpm) and with "good vibrations" Smile

You did this with the TempoTrainer I guess? Which frequency?

I currently still feel the whole way of swimming frontcrawl is too much of a moving target for me to commit to such sets (the USRPT motivation is to "harden" a certain technique -- so if I don't want it to harden, then according to this motivation I shouldn't do it).

My minimum frequency is 60 strokes/min, and there I feel a minimum kind of relaxed speed over 25m's should be 20sec, or perhaps even a bit faster. But sometimes it's easier, sometimes harder, and I am still not sure about the reasons/circumstances. Perhaps the main aspect here for me is to be "long and horizontal and relaxed", and for various reasons some bending, some crouching, some stiffness shows up.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:38 am

Sheilas recovery is more or less the same as my dryland drill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXCw9t6bV8c

Watch how her low arm stays wide and moves forward to stretch tge core out, ride the weight of the recovering arm (surfing the recovery weight),and is set up to transition to a strong catch.
The weight of the recovery is almost pushing you into catch, depending on the arm timing.
On dryland you feel the weight of the upperbody on the outstretched arm and the rigcage . In the water this weight will glide you forward and down over that wide stablle paddle.
When catch is made, the loaded core contracts and  pulls/twists the shoulders etc back.

all elite swimmers swim this way when swimming relaxed. For a reason I guess.

I doubt super slowmo swimming is good for people with sinky legs. If you cant find balance at float speed your stroke cant be the same as you got with some speed and automatic better balance.
Myve choose rear floation thats just enough to challenge your balance a bit, but not make it too difficult.
That way you can concentrate better on the rotational balance arm body timing and connection.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:16 pm

Sprinter wrote:
s.sciame wrote:
@SA and NC: today I did a set NC may like:

60 minutes of 25m reps on disciplined 4s rest (with TT).

Throughout the set I mostly focused on SA's advice "push your shoulder forward and down on top of the barrel while you arm goes down even more" and it worked really well: good catch, good balance, almost no kick, steady 20SPL. The interval was 26s (coming in 22s). After 52 minutes I still felt fresh, so I committed to 19SPL (with some more push and some more kick) and swam the last 8 minutes on a 25s interval coming in 21s. I finished the set quite fresh (HR 132bpm) and with "good vibrations" Smile

You did this with the TempoTrainer I guess? Which frequency?


Yes, it was at 62SPM. Today I did it again: 40 minutes at 63SPM/20SPL, coming in 21.9s interval 25.7s. I really like this set: by taking the turn out of the equation and not having to count laps and reps, I can focus entirely on the stroke. I believe it's also a good set to get ready for the open water season. The next time I'll try 1 hour at 64SPM/20SPL same rest (today it was too easy, still 124bpm after 40').

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:08 pm

s.sciame wrote:
Yes, it was at 62SPM. Today I did it again: 40 minutes at 63SPM/20SPL, coming in 21.9s interval 25.7s. I really like this set: by taking the turn out of the equation and not having to count laps and reps, I can focus entirely on the stroke. I believe it's also a good set to get ready for the open water season. The next time I'll try 1 hour at 64SPM/20SPL same rest (today it was too easy, still 124bpm after 40').

Very nice. I have some rather similar experiences. Fixing the beep, you ONLY need to count the beeps per lane (adjusting if you are too fast or too slow) and the beeps for the break, and you don't need to keep anything in memory (these numbers are just targets). All what needs to be observed is the total runtime of this process, but this is rather easy. And you need to do some calculations in advance (but we like that, don't we Very Happy this anticipation).

I would also guess that 22s/25m would be a stable time for me. But, since I aim at the shorter distances, I believe the stroke rate should be a bit lower (60 SPM), and the time somewhat faster (20s or faster, not decided yet). This creates then instabilities, but that's part of the game for me. Sure, at some point I need to converge, but still undecided.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:58 am

Sprinter wrote:This creates then instabilities, but that's part of the game for me. Sure, at some point I need to converge, but still undecided.

What kind of instabilities?

Today I tried 45 minutes of 25m reps at 64SPM/20SPL hitting consistent 21.56s on interval 25.31s. Because I treat these sets as open water preparation/simulation I added 1 sight per length - to make sure 1 sight every 20 strokes doesn't affect pace - and kicked as little as possible. It felt like a threshold effort (140bpm after 45 minutes), which is not bad considering that I slept quite badly in the last 2 nights. I'd like to extend this gear to a 1 hour set then progress to 65SPM/20SPL etc.

Back to the rotation topic: SA, together with your dryland excercise are you also doing the board-under-hips-drill by chance? I'm doing some progress on this front: did 4x25 today, the first 2 lengths with snorkel, the last 2 without and breathing every 3 strokes. The stroke is still crappy, but the board stays in place. I start each length with some sculling to stabilize the board, then I start stroking at the 5m mark. As you said before, we may have been influenced by TI and I agree. Band swimming and this drill are 2 ways for getting rid of that bad hips overrotation. By the way I also launched a challenge about board-under-hips-drill on TI forum and, as you may have seen, it got a lot of success Very Happy

Look at tip n.5:
http://www.220triathlon.com/training/swim/dave-scotts-five-tips-for-improving-your-swim-technique-for-triathlon/10300.html

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by Sprinter on Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:32 pm

s.sciame wrote:
Sprinter wrote:This creates then instabilities, but that's part of the game for me. Sure, at some point I need to converge, but still undecided.
What kind of instabilities?

Timing-wise and technique-wise. Indeed, I think I should go for 19sec/25m with 60 SPM kicking very hard. Still a lot of experimentation involved; it's (naturally) more at the edge. You need more rest, and everything varies more. Then 60 SPM is a rather low stroke rate, which adds to the instability (in a general sense). Higher stroke rates are somewhat more stable, but currently I feel too inefficient with them, so I need to go back and forth between lower and higher stroke rates.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:48 pm

Hi guys,
I could just read the posts...

As far as I observed every swimmer has a natural stroke rate (i. e mine is around 65 per minute) , I could maintain the 17 SPL with this stroke rate for over the distances 400m and can maintain 16SPL for below the distances 400m. I can also hold the same SPLs with the 75 strokes per minute but my shoulder (especially the left shoulder which was operated) starting to sore and it becomes painfull after 300-400m. Sureley my pace increases but it is not sustainable not due to the lack of my fitness level but because of the ability of my phshology, like the burning of the tires of a car my shoulder hurts...

As I observed this is not only because of spinning with higher cadance but also due to the lack of rotation (in order to meet the stroke rate) slipping of the arm movements from the scapular plane and pulling in the wrong direction which provides less power ability and once you start loosing the power pain starts... It is very hard to gain a higher cadance with the same pull mechanics, because as I explained above, this is related with our current physiology (flexibility, fitness level, weight, fast twitch ability, scapula/shoulder mobility, elbow flexibility, lung capacity, etc...)

The below can be done to perform the same pull mechanics with higher cadance:
- Do dry land exercises especially core plyometrics to shift from left to righ more easily.
- Use tech toc device(you can buy and also you can do it by yourself using a tube tied to your wrist) http://www.finisinc.com/Tech-Toc
- Increase the stroke rate gradually (i.e 1 stokes per minute for each week).
- Loose some weights in order to be more agile.
- Do basic yoga exercises to enhance lung capacity. Also hypoxy sets (such as breathing in each 5-7-9-11 strokes) is a great way to overcome the shortness of breath (as an asthama patient I know this feeling very well).
- Can work with ankle bands in order to focus on your pulling technique with higher cadance.

P.S: I am not only discussing, but also showing some ways to achieve this as a result of my experience.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:26 pm

I must confess I am not very consistent with my own dryland exercises. I try them and think hey, that can be usefull, but dont have the discipline to them a lot. Dryland is so boring.
Dont do the the drill board under hips thing. The basic core tension and shoulder reach isnt yet an automatic thing in my stroke. Tend to forget it a bit  because it doesnt happens on it own, it takes effort and some focus, but I am 100% certain its a good thing as long you are not fishtailing through the water too much. Takes some conditioning of the used muscles.

Did you notice your kick becomes later when focus on impoving the shoulder reach? Thats what happens to me.More a reaction kick that happens automatically. Can be given extra power to make rotation easier and give some extra stroke power, but isnt a must.
Swimming with small dolphin kick also feels more natural. you can try that too, with little hip rotation/more hip rotation.

Havent been on the Ti forum. It has been a rather bad time investment to post there so much.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:22 am

SA wrote:I must confess I am not very consistent with my own dryland exercises. I try them and think hey, that can be usefull, but dont have the discipline to them a lot. Dryland is so boring.
Dont do the the drill board under hips thing. The basic core tension and shoulder reach isnt yet an automatic thing in my stroke. Tend to forget it a bit  because it doesnt happens on it own, it takes effort and some focus, but I am 100% certain its a good thing as long you are not fishtailing through the water too much. Takes some conditioning of the used muscles.

Did you notice your kick becomes later when focus on impoving the shoulder reach? Thats what happens to me.More a reaction kick that happens automatically. Can be given extra power to make rotation easier and give some extra stroke power, but isnt a must.
Swimming with small dolphin kick also feels more natural. you can try that too, with little hip rotation/more hip rotation.

Havent been on the Ti forum. It has been a rather bad time investment to post there so much.

I also dont write on TI forum, life is short and time is money, cant waste my little time with that all rubbish stuff.

Let's come to our subject... I am generally focusing on the below in my trainings:
- Coordination of legs and arms(timing)
- High elbow catch and pull through.
- Streamlining and proper extension - dont think about rotation, it happens by itself during extension.
- Optimum strokes per lap.
- Stroke rhythm (using tempo trainer for this).

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by cottmiler on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:51 am

As a late developer at tennis I have spent many years learning how to do a big serve.

Slowly and surely it is happening, better and better each year as I tweak this or that.

It is analogous (similar) to the swimming program you have outlined in your last paragraph in terms of the demands on the body and brain.

NC had written:

- Coordination of legs and arms(timing)
- High elbow catch and pull through.
- Streamlining and proper extension - dont think about rotation, it happens by itself during extension.
- Optimum strokes per lap.
- Stroke rhythm (using tempo trainer for this).



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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:07 am

Let's come to our subject... I am generally focusing on the below in my trainings:
- Coordination of legs and arms(timing)
- High elbow catch and pull through.
- Streamlining and proper extension - dont think about rotation, it happens by itself during extension.
- Optimum strokes per lap.
- Stroke rhythm (using tempo trainer for this).



Totally agree, thats identical to my list I walk through during a swim(except for the temp trainer'

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:53 pm

SA wrote:Let's come to our subject... I am generally focusing on the below in my trainings:
- Coordination of legs and arms(timing)
- High elbow catch and pull through.
- Streamlining and proper extension - dont think about rotation, it happens by itself during extension.
- Optimum strokes per lap.
- Stroke rhythm (using tempo trainer for this).



Totally agree, thats identical to my list I walk through during a swim(except for the temp trainer'




cottmiler wrote:
As a late developer at tennis I have spent many years learning how to do a big serve.

Slowly and surely it is happening, better and better each year as I tweak this or that.

It is analogous (similar) to the swimming program you have outlined in your last paragraph in terms of the demands on the body and brain.

NC had written:

- Coordination of legs and arms(timing)
- High elbow catch and pull through.
- Streamlining and proper extension - dont think about rotation, it happens by itself during extension.
- Optimum strokes per lap.
- Stroke rhythm (using tempo trainer for this).

Dear Cottmiler & SA;
May be it will take 10 years for us to get 10% better/faster, which also never takes us to the next step, but come what may/in any case we love swimming, thats why we are here coming together and being one soul!
Keep going on... cheers

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:04 pm

Another one of my favourite sets today:

1 hour of 25m reps at 64SPM hitting steady 20SPL, time 21.56s interval 25.31s. One sight per length, minimal kick. HR 144bpm after 1h and 3600m.

As an open water oriented set, I find 3.75s for the rests are perfect: it's enough time to take any turn effort out of the equation (ie enough time to get the feet on the wall and restart with a gentle pushoff on side) but not too much rest for such short reps at aerobic effort.

Now that I know I can sustain 64SPM for 1h without spinning the wheels, the next week I'll do the same cycle at 65SPM/20SPL: first I'll start with 20 minutes, then 40 then 1h.

Salvo


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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:51 pm

Sheila isnt only an expert on arm mechanics. Her description in text of the optimal hip roll/movement is also 100% spot on as far as I can tell.
http://www.velopress.com/timing-the-finish-in-serape-swimming/

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by cottmiler on Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:53 pm

This upward flick of the hip is the "Twitch" which I discovered a while ago when on SwimSmooth forum.

It comes from within the body as soon as the hand catches the water. Not driven by legs.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:46 pm

I didnt understand the moving forward with the low side hip for a long time (was only rotating the hips), but if you really reach forward/extend on the low side with some shoulder twist the whole low side is moving a bit forward.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by cottmiler on Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:21 am

Jimmy D'Shea is always worth a view in my opinion. Having watched it for years I am only starting to understand it.

I was reminded of it by Sheila T's arm action having some similarity to Jimmy's.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYuSMumlUk4

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:45 pm

SA wrote:Sheila isnt only an expert on arm mechanics. Her description in text of the optimal hip roll/movement is also 100% spot on as far as I can tell.
http://www.velopress.com/timing-the-finish-in-serape-swimming/

Did you read her book, SA? Would you recommend it?

Salvo

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:39 pm

I have read a lot of stroke descriptions from coaches etc on forums which i did not regognize, but when reading Sheilas stuff, it was like coming home. Finally some no-nonsense and regognizable manner how the stroke is described.
Its mostly about pulling water. She masters all aspects of the stroke, which she describes short, but spot on.
Dont think the Sheilas faint S shape or straigther is that important as long as you have a good paddle shape from hand to elbow.

Swim speed secrets is mostly about freestyle and holding water.
Swim speed strokes covers all strokes.
Good pictures, clear language.

You wont find sensational new insights I guess, but both are a good read.

Paul and Terry have their personal obsessive solutions which will make you swim 1000% faster, for Sheila the magic lies in holding water with a high elbow.
You know Nightcrawlers opinion about all these miracle cures Very Happy

She swims like she talks. Powerfull no-nonsense stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc8q8hmTlA4

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:50 pm

Please read the text below the video, it is 100 yard, also wet suit provides at least 8 seconds advantage for 100m(for me it is 8 secs). Then her time becomes 1:10 for 100m free, is it good for an olympian?

I m not against any coach or training system, i m against the opportunists taking your money by showing the old stuff as if those were miracles... Keep in mind that without training hard a training system or a coach cant make you faster. Swim at least 20 km in a week(main course) then take those stuff as a dessert.

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by s.sciame on Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:45 pm

SA wrote:
You have to spear deeper, but try to get your shoulder over it while you push the shoulder and arm down.
The waterpolo way instead of the TI way. This way you can grab  more water with a faster catch.

The shoulder can rotate more relative to the hip. you can use some more roll, but not more hip roll.
Hip drive doesnt need much hip roll and much kick amplitude.

I'm doing good progress with this new focus, ie rotating upper body more than hips. Didn't film myself but I'm pretty sure hips rotate less than before because the board-under-hips drill has now become doable. I managed to do the following sets today with this technique and a bit more kayak timing:

- 20x75m on 1:20 at 1:06-1:07
- 20 minutes of 25m reps at 65SPM/20SPL hitting steady 21.23s and restarting at 24.92s (3.69s rest)
- 8x25m on :35 at 18.75s included flip turns (100m target pace, all 20SPL)

The next time I'll try to extend the 2nd set to 40 minutes. Digging the shoulder helps.

Salvo

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Re: under-rotation?

Post by SA on Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:56 pm

do you already feel some resemblence with Klims freestyle technique, diggin with the shoulders, pulling with the trunk ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYtdyCUDloY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PCUm2dFBXg&list=PLDCD8F6A5D385322D

did 20x50 ankleband coming in under 45 leaving on the minute swimming some sort of Klim style. Felt pretty good.


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