Correct Arm Movement

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Correct Arm Movement

Post by cottmiler on Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:22 pm

Someone (nightcrawler?) advised recently not to study elite swimmers.  Although this may seem a bit extreme, perhaps he has a point.

If I look at the front-on view of Mr Smooth on Swim Smooth animation, based on Jono Van Hazel, elite swimmer, it looks like he takes his arms past his scapular plane but of course he isn't.  When we try to copy him we hurt our shoulder joints because we do not have the shoulder flexibility created from childhood.  

Therefore don't bother watching him.

However, looking at female Ms Smooth, (Shelley Taylor-Smith etc..)  she clearly keeps her shoulders within the limits of the scapular plane and swims with "rounded shoulders".  Just like Terry Laughlin for example.

Perhaps females have less shoulder mobility and older swimmers should study Ms Smooth and attempt to copy her arm action instead of contortionist Mr Smooth.

Once again, thanks to zenturtle (T.I) for telling us about the scapular plane.

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Re: Correct Arm Movement

Post by Sprinter on Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:28 pm

I don't see a problem here (for us!).

In my experience, with quite a few swim clinics and camps, the recovery isn't a big problem, and I believe that's due to two reasons:

1. Shoulder flexibility can be improved (and should be), and once the initial extreme stiffness is overcome, at least what I've seen is that everybody was able to perform a medium high-elbow.

2. More important, the problem of going outside that scapular plane I believe is a "luxury problem" -- most people just don't have that ability at all! So I believe it's a non-issue for most adults. Sure, you have to feel somewhat relaxed during the recovery, but that's it! No chance for a stiff adult to do much wrong here (except a big effort would be performed with each recovery -- but does this happen?).

I am not speaking about injuries here.

But, anyway, injured or not, I believe that for a non-competitive swimmer it's very easy to avoid injuries in swimming (except of accidents, of course): just stop once you feel a pain which shouldn't be there. One has to learn to distinguish between the "good pain" of exhaustion (in the muscles, with breathing, ...), and the bad pain which comes from the joints and everything around that. It seems truly for swimming the case that there are no hidden dangers, but it's all plainly visible.

The problems arise once a strong competitive angle is there. Additionally, many very good swimmers have hyper-mobile joints, and when then you train hard say 15 hours per week, and you try to squeeze out every little advantage you get, then sure there is danger. I think this is the perspective of that Quick-video.

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Re: Correct Arm Movement

Post by SA on Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:25 pm

I had a few time shoulder problems. Always on the non breathing side. Caused by not finishing the stroke properly and recovering the arm with too little shoulder rotation.
You dont feel shoulder problems from recovery coming, but suddenly they are there.
The shoulder problems form too ambitious EVF tryouts can ususally be felt while doing it. Just keep in your range of movement and you can keep it under control.
This is all rather personal. Everybodies shoulder anatomy is different.

Mr smooth was taken as an example also because the doesnt have an extreme EVF. Its all looking pretty normal to me. I cant watch the animation anymore, but I dont see the real mr smoothe do extrreme things. He does have extremely precise control over his movements in time and space though.

I have learned more from watching elite swimmers than listening to all that standard coaching `wisdom`.
Most time is spent on seperating the coaching crap from the coaching wisdom.
Good swimmers dont sell crap, They just show how its done.
If you cant imitate their movement on dryland, dont try it in the water at all expense, but at least they show the basic foundations.
And they show that many roads lead to Rome, while not violating the basic rules.

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Re: Correct Arm Movement

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:12 am

Dear Folks,

Nice topic for bringing in mind the scapular plane issue which enables us to prevent injuries.

I had had an operation from my left shoulder due to "bankart lesion" which means repeated shoulder dislocation. It had happened while swimming fast backstroke in my club years with large and heavy hand paddles 15 years ago, once the shoulder dislocated then it repeated. I swam with that shoulder for alsmot 10 years, then since it dislocated in each workout I obliged to had an operation in the year 2012. My doctor, Sarper Çetinkaya, almost the best doctor in his subject across the world, he is also the doctor of Turkish national football team.  He operated lots of famous football players including Arda Turan playing in Athletico Madrid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey_national_football_team
http://www.haberler.com/arda-turan-tedavi-oldu-6217641-haberi/

He made a arthroscopic surgery on my shoulder with 3 holes and sewed up the rupture in my capsule. He recommended me not to swim for 4 months and not to join any races for 1 year. In a week I was in the pool swimming like a gastby with a broken wing, operated arm was doing the recovery inside the water other arm(right) was doing a normal recovery. I swam and rehabilated my shoulder with water. After a 2 weeks when I went to control, he checked my shoulder and cried out that it was a miracle. He took some footages of my shoulder mobility in order to show it in his seminars. It was the miracle of water, which is my best friend and which is the best physiotherapist. Unconsciously I had done a great drill to strenghten my shoulder by moving it in line with the scapular plane and this leaded a wonderfull result!!!

I have to remind that;
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

SIMPLY; keeping on watching and trying to immitating Mr Smooth or Mrs Smooth like unrealistic virtual marketing product, and moreover household rubbish things would have neder made you a better and a faster swimmer neither until now nor from now on...  

Now let me decribe you a series/combination of just one drill(1/3, 2/3 and a full doggy paddle - also it is very similar tot the drill that I did during my rehabilitation) that I am showing/teaching in my swim clinics for maintaining your arm actions on(in line with) the scapular plane:

Assuming that you are breathing in each 3 strokes(if cannot, it should be better to learn and do it as soon as possible; just persistenly do it and give yourself 21 days to get used to, it will be easy to do then, your neck will turn to the weak side easily soon);

Drill1: Breath, Recover first arm inside the water, the second and the third arms outside the water. (1/3 doggy paddle)
Drill2: Breath, Recover first and the second arms inside the water, the third arm outside the water. (2/3 doggy paddle)
Drill3: Breath, Recover first, second and the third arms inside the water (full doggy paddle).
Note: While doing the drills also use 2bk action, this will also be a good exercise for learning to save the energy for the open water. All should be with "full" front and back extension likewise in real swimming.

Dear Cottmiler;
Not only our flesh but also our mind getting older day by day. So; if you want to progress after the age of 25, beware of virtual marketing products revelaed by the opportunist coyote salesmen and try to remain in the real world, keep it simple stupid as much as possible.

P.S: Soon I will ask Tolga, who is my student and also my faithful friend, to record me in the water while showing the drill and share the video with you (but in contrast mine will be gratis)  Very Happy

All the best for all of us,
Good luck,
N.C

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Re: Correct Arm Movement

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:35 am

Here is video of mine showing a drill for scapular plane exercise. My friend Tolga recorded today after my morning session.

https://youtu.be/OWLcH_MacbM
SPL:16-17
Pace:1:20

A good example for teaching your arms to move in line with your scapular plane, which will prevent shoulder injuries.

Swim 8*100m with 20" rest after each 100m, do the laps as below:
- 1st 25m: Breath, Recover first arm inside the water, the second and the third arms outside the water. (1/3 doggy paddle)
- 2nd 25m: Breath, Recover first and the second arms inside the water, the third arm outside the water. (2/3 doggy paddle)
- 3rd 25m: Breath, Recover first, second and the third arms inside the water (full doggy paddle)
- 4th 25m freestyle swim

While doing the drills also use 2 beat kick action with a sustainable pace for the open water event that you are targeting, this will also be a good exercise for learning to save the energy. All should be with "full" front and back extension likewise in real swimming.

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Re: Correct Arm Movement

Post by cottmiler on Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:49 am

Thanks. It needs careful watching to see what you are doing.

It seems that you are progressing with hands coming out of the water, next, back of hands skating forward along the water( as in a T.I drill) and finally hands moving forward completely under the water.

This last one you call doggy paddle which is interesting because I think it may be called "long dog"?

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Re: Correct Arm Movement

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:40 am

cottmiler wrote:Thanks.  It needs careful watching to see what you are doing.

It seems that you are progressing with hands coming out of the water, next, back of hands skating forward along the water( as in  a T.I drill)  and finally hands moving forward completely under the water.

This last one you call doggy paddle which is interesting because I think it may be  called "long dog"?

I am calling this drill as "mixed doddy paddle drill"

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Re: Correct Arm Movement

Post by cottmiler on Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:32 am

Just back from 1260 m of mixed doggy paddle.

I found it interesting but not sure it protects the shoulder since the body must always twist correctly out of the way of the arm when its pulling. I had to concentrate on getting the kick to help with this.

Another observation is that these drills seem to improve stroke timing since the recovery arm isn't spending time waving at the onlookers.

I finished swimming some laps with fists skating forward along the water during recovery and that was very helpful for all the above.




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Re: Correct Arm Movement

Post by SA on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:41 pm

This is the generally used version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NnS4H2ItI4


A nice video about the difference between dropped and high.(too high for must of us)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zpi6N8k4kg

if you have more avarage stiffness  it will probably look more like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eObYCJDXFJs

Can it be his jerky, stiff stroke is good enough for about 55 sec 100 m sprint?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfmPI_kPOrY&list=PLa1_V0-8JGExd6bzbzfw9ISw8_YNWeuVL

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Re: Correct Arm Movement

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:16 am

cottmiler wrote:Just back from 1260 m of mixed doggy paddle.

I found it interesting but not sure it protects the shoulder since the body must always twist correctly out of the way of the arm when its pulling.  I had to concentrate on getting the kick to help with this.

Another observation is that these drills seem to improve stroke timing since the recovery arm isn't spending time waving at the onlookers.

I finished swimming some laps with fists skating forward along the water during recovery and that was very helpful for all the above.


Doing the recovery inside the water (or lower arm recovery) needs less rotation so that even you dont rotate much enough this drill prevents shoulder injury, it is more obvious to realize its comfortableness when your shoulder injured.

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