from 0 to 40

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from 0 to 40

Post by SA on Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:50 am

If you want to humiliate yourself try to swim from strokerate 0 to 40.
Start is a front float extended potion.
Now in super slowmo mimic a swimming stroke. Say 4 seconds for one stroke. Thats really,  really slow...... 
Balance feels weird, the recovering arm messes up your balance and sinks the front, rotates the body. If you try to reach and extend, set up a high elbow, you notice there is no feedback. no water pressure. Why exert energy to extend and move the body into weird  swim postures? Its useless because you cant use these postures and release them when there is no water pressure at any time in the stroke.
So whats the result? You revert to normal dryland movement with little internal body tension.
You pull with a straight arm or dropped elbow. You decrease your reach and strokelength.
Since the recovering arm messus up your balance you recover fast to get the arm in the water again fast.
Result: catch up stroke.

If you have strange things in you stroke it will become obvious. Its interesting to see what can be done with the weight of the recovering arm, or pulspress on the water for a small part of the stroke, finish , start, mid etc.to see how that disturbs basic balance or helps propulsion.

The main problem isnt fore after balance, but your lack of flexibility. Spending energy to overcome internal resisitance becomes useless when you cant release energy to the water.
Suppose imitating good stroke mechanics costs 50 watt and the power on the water is 5 watt. You are using poor technique for that speed.
But that 50 watt energy investment makes it possible to effectively transfer 200 watt to the water in a sprintlike activety.
If you go to the 10 watt imput swimtechnique you are only able to transfer 100 watt of power effectively to the water if you try to sprint.

When you are stiff, bad technique is the most efficient technique if speed is not your primary concern.
Most swimmers in the pool already reached this conclusion.

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by cottmiler on Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:21 am

Have you been watching me at my local pool?

I have been working on this sort of thing since the cruise and from your description it sounds like you haven't fully mastered the body balance at all times in the stroke.

Have you discovered the "Twitch" yet?

Lack of flexibility is countered by more body roll in order to prevent the arms going behind the scapular plane at the latter end of the stroke.


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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by SA on Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:48 pm

You could be right. Havent spent much time in this near floating speed thus far.
Especially balancing around the central axis at various swim freeze positions isnt easy.
On the other hand. Its so different to normal swimming that the training is hardly  specific anymore.
Inertia effects, drag and propulsive forces totally change the picture when speed and stroke rate increase.

Dont remember so well. what did you mean exactly with the twitch effect?

Lack of flexibility is countered by more body roll wrote:
sounds like a ducttape solution which introduces other problems.

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by cottmiler on Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:07 pm

I put a thread on "Twitch" on SS a while ago and you even posted a video on T.I of me doing it.

Do you recall SolarEnergy's NAD? Do you remember him twizzling around on axis with only a twitch of the core?

It sounds like you are nearly there with flotation. Terry Laughlin tries to convey this to his students with some difficulty I reckon.

SA wrote "It's so different to normal swimming that the training is hardly specific anymore". I'm not sure I agree with this since you ideally need to maintain a horizontal body line through your entire power stroke.

Try this; lie on front, point left hand/arm down to floor at 90 deg to body as though in maximum catch position, just lay there, then twitch the core or hips or something so you click over onto your right hand hip. No need to move hand/arm.

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by SA on Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:10 pm

OK found your example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjzBkV95SHM&feature=youtu.be

I doubt Nightcrawler had this in mind when he said:
Great observation, my energy conservative technique is totally based on this principle

Still dont totally get what this principle is, but i will try your rotate over arm idea.


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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:41 pm

the idea of using the core body for balance is quite similar to what i m doing. but in this footage cottmiler has a lack of a bit plantar flexion in his feet breaking his momentum. also he os pulling to the sides and missing the powerful catch, should better use high elbow catch and pull under the body line.


Last edited by nightcrawler on Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by cottmiler on Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:54 pm

NC, you are correct that my left arm pull is totally deficient and that is what I have recently been working on. I find that fist drill helps here because I have to get thrust from the forearm being angled correctly throughout.

Finally, I am better at getting a good catch with the right arm but appreciate the left has never been good. I am still digesting lessons from video footage from before Christmas taken in Australia as I couldn't swim on the later 2 month cruise.

You will see from my recent threads that I have identified these weaknesses but it was only on Thursday that I got a clue as to how to twist the body anticlockwise more to allow the left arm to perform it's complete proper action.






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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by SA on Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:14 pm

As long as the descriptions dont get any more precise as using the core body for balance I stick with Sheila Taorminas descriptions of proper swim core actions which I can understand better.

If you guys mean the way this swimmers shifts his butt from let to  right understand  what you mean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpXgRyc6r1U
Cant call that a secrest. He is doing that a bit too much if you ask me.

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:40 pm

SA,
I found a video for you, hope you will like it:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BRlQbmNFSgE/

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by SA on Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:34 pm

if you wanted to show me some child abuse, you better had shown me this one;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxgX34rTxo
Poor kids. These morons keep on churning out more and more swim disasters.

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by s.sciame on Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:53 pm

Here is the full video:

https://www.goswim.tv/lessons/1792-advanced-freestyle-swim-lesson-3-arm-recovery-and-hand-entry

The girl shows a nice swimming, no child abuse fortunately Very Happy

Anyway I don't get what this video has to do with this thread.

Salvo

PS: off topic, GoSwim sometimes shows some great footage of Scott Tucker, his breathing mechanics are excellent!

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:12 am

0 to 40 SPM humiliation for whom for what? Sun Yang has 45 strokes per minute, he is producing world record with this SPM. Even with 40 SPM he can hold 60" per 100m pace. Can this be a humiliation, or swimming with lower SPM can really be a key for taking us to one step forward? Can this be the picture of happiness?

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by SA on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:20 am

whem you always swim above 40 strokes/min and try to swim at 10 strokes a min its like entering a whole new world.  Takes some adapation to get comfortable there.

NIghtcrawler,, you are a good floater too. What do you think about head position?
I can float looking down, looking 45 forward, or raising  eyes above water level looking fiorward spying over the water like a croc.
As lomg as you hold the same bodytone and only pivot the head in the neck, head position doesnt influence bodyposition a bit.Proud chest, flat lower back, thats it.
Only when you start pressing water down to lift the head you are ruining balance. Local pivoting of the head without any other body action is OK.

wha can do this Very Happy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyVApB2gjf8

these girls are amazing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtbouY3fw9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M516g70IOII

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:46 am

Well, expecting better swimming times without swimming is insane for being a competitive. This thread and the videos are not related with swimming, 0-40 can only be floating just like a lotus on the lake for a low level swimmer like me.

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by SA on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:54 am

its just fun to mess around a bit.


this was the video was searching. I guess he has a point somwhere. What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afLqay5L95Q


not in this crazy way though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDxeDxYqivw Shocked
this is teaching how to push water down.

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by s.sciame on Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:44 am

SA wrote:


this was the video was searching. I guess he has a point somwhere. What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afLqay5L95Q


I think SharkFM may like this video, which gives value to his kickboarding theory. In fact I suspect (and asked but nobody answered) that fast kickers are faster with a kickboard and head up than they are when kicking with a snorkel in streamlined position or when kicking on back.

What do you guys think about it?

Salvo

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:32 am

SA wrote:its just fun to mess around a bit.


this was the video was searching. I guess he has a point somwhere. What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afLqay5L95Q


not in this crazy way though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDxeDxYqivw Shocked
this is teaching how to push water down.

SA,
You are talking about extreme things, these are not realistic, briefly: you cant lift your legs when you lift your head, human anatomy is not available for this. You know why? Bacause iliopsoas is just a hip flexor, it has no extension ability in order to lift the legs, thats the reason why we cant swim faster with head up.

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by SA on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:18 pm

Tried front streamlined float again  today. Arms in front of shoulders, pivot head up to look over the water surface.
When pivoting head up, head sinks until eye level. than whole body is stable and floating at water surface from front to rear without any kicking. its not a question. its a fact for some lucky people.
Neck is bended a lot backward, so its not so comfortable,or needed when swimming, but possible to swim this way without much effect on balance at the expense of upperback and neck tension.

this guy is pretty buoyant too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GkJKtzIPzA

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by cottmiler on Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:56 pm

Once you can float on the front then the challenge is to perfect the hand/arm pull.

I think it must be utterly symmetrical which is always difficult for right dominant people. You must feel pressure on the forearm throughout.

I have probably said before that I use fist drill for this and have found that I needed to rotate more anticlockwise. This loses balance in the water which is why the body refuses to allow a perfect hand pull with the left. The twitch is needed.

It is quite amusing to start my swim at 1 cm/hour up the pool doing this action but later rip past everyone with the full stroke!

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by SA on Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:19 pm

Another strange floating theory.

Some people believe a relaxed body floats better than a tense body.
Who does believe that?

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Re: from 0 to 40

Post by cottmiler on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:32 am

SA you are correct. This statement of "try to relax" is the cause of years of delay in learning to swim.

We flop about like a jelly fish when we need to be taut from finger tip to toe.

It is because the "coach" is so distant from the learner and has forgotten that he learned as a child.

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Re: from 0 to 40

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