Training for Long Distance Swimming

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Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by cottmiler on Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:47 am

Nightcrawler has just written:

"Conclusion: Swimming 50s with tight interval is harder than swimming 200s. No need to swim distances over 50m for marathon swimming races."

I pulled this out of his 11 page post so that it doesn't get lost since this topic is very debatable.

This conclusion is opposite to, for example, Swim Smooth which seems to prefer a 400 m routine in the pool.

Of course when you are a beginner, 400 m may seem impossible but once the breathing, stamina and pacing are sorted then it's fine.

The logic behind nightcrawler's assertion is that the pace over a long distance is easily calculated from your 50 m lap time. For example, my lap time grows at about 10% slower for each doubling of distance. So the predicted race time is obtainable from my 50 m lap time.

I think therefore it's better to get the stroke action correct before doing big distances in the pool.











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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:01 pm

Subject matter is:

My Theory: Doing 50 meters with 6 seconds rest is much harder than doing 200 meters with 15 second rest. But each of the two sets should be done with 3K target race pace.

My Test: if the 50meters are with 39" average tempo, then 200 meters should be done with 3x(39"+2"turn)+39"=2:42 average tempo.
I did the below 2 sets in order to compare:
Set1: 60x50m crawl int:45" (with average 39" tempo which refers to 1:21 pace for each 100m, average heart rate:150)
Set2: 15x200m int:3:00 (with average 2:42 tempo which refers to 1:21 pace for each 100m, average heart rate:130)

My Conclusion and Proof:
Set1 is to a great extent harder than Set2, the higher the heart rate the harder the exercise. So why should I do repetitions over 50m while peraparing for a 3K race?
Doing repetitions over 50 meters are useless for any kind of race distance.
Playing ONLY with the rest durations and number of repetitions (for 400m 20x50m can be R:10" OR for 3K 60x50m can be R:6") target based workout can be planned independently from the repetition distances.

Simple but effective!

My Protocol for Some Races:
50m    freestyle:  8*25m R:30"
100m  freestyle: 16x25m R:20"
200m  freestyle: 16x50m R:15"
400m  freestyle: 20x50m R:10"
800m  freestyle: 30x50m R:8"
1500m freestyle: 40x50m R:7"
3000m freestyle: 60x50m R:6"
5000m freestyle: 100x50m R:5"
* Note again that as the target race distance increases the number of repetitions should be increased and the rest durations should be decreased.

A Sample Training Chart:




Good luck,
Nightcrawler

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by s.sciame on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:32 pm

Very very interesting topic. Moreover NC's test outcome is impressive: 130bpm vs 150bpm is huge.

USRPT insists on those strict 20s rest, I don't know why. Maybe it's just a simple way to arrange a workout for a squad: resting only 6s could be complicated in a lane with many swimmers, while it's perfect if you train solo. Clearly if you fix 20s rest you then also have to increase the rep distance in order to train for long distances. But probably there's no point, as NC suggests. Moreover keeping the rep distance short and playing with the other variables could also contribute to swimming with a better form.

A couple of questions for NC:
- is this why you're not doing the 75's anymore in your workouts?
- regarding the above protocol, what about replacing the 50m reps with 25m reps with half rest (eg for an 800, 60x25m R:4" instead of 30x50m R:8")? Here the limit would be when the rest becomes too short, basically the time for an open turn.

I'm only recently appreciating the 25's as a way to train for long distances too: each week I'm doing cycles of 20-40-60 minutes of 25m reps with short rests (around 3.5s) while progressively increasing stroke rate and pace. Each time I succeed 1h at a given pace, I begin a new cycle at a slightly faster pace. The cool thing of the 25's is that the turn is taken out of the equation so I can focus solely on the stroke. The breathing rhythm as well is more similar to open water swimming (no interruptions due to flip turns).

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:23 pm

Sciame,
It is better to engage the turns and push offs. Believe or not!

In teaching triathletes or adult learners to become better swimmers, I have found one of the greatest obstacles is in their minds. They don’t think of themselves as swimmers, but rather as runners or cyclists, trying to get better at swimming. In order to swim like a swimmer, one has to think and act like a swimmer.

During a recent swim clinic one of my students complained rather openly that he didn’t see the value in learning to streamline or do flip turns. “What is the point?” he asked. “I am never going to do a flip turn or streamline in an open water race.

The point is that in order to swim fast, whether in a pool or in open water, one must learn the ways of a good swimmer, and those include streamlining off every wall and doing flip turns. Doing both of these well in practice will shave seconds off each 100 repeat you swim and that will give you more confidence in your swimming ability. Streamlining helps teach you the importance of reducing frontal drag, whether during the push off the wall or during the swim itself. As long as you are moving, frontal drag is slowing you down. I spend a great deal of time teaching myself how to swim with less frontal drag. Doing flip turns are not only much faster, but an important part of hypoxic and core training.

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by s.sciame on Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:16 pm

yes, I always do flip turns and practice good streamlining. I didn't mean to swim 25's all the time, just some sets.
So do you think 25m reps are less effective than the 50m reps to train for distance?

Salvo

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:38 am

The less the repetition distance the better the technique will be. In this manner, 25s are better than the 50s, 3 seconds rest between 25s is not precise, according to your reaction time it can be 2.5, 3.5, 2, 2.25, 2,70 etc but 6 seconds among 50s more precisely measurable.

If you can do properly, 200x25m 2 with 3 seconds rest also can work for 5k swim race. The above are not the absolute truth but my way of reaching the goal. There is not only one true for reaching the goal. For example, Salvatore Schillaci prefers head to score the goals on the other hand Paolo Maldini prefers long shots.

P.S: adding this to my consultancy fees Smile

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:30 am

Swimly I can state that if you want to swim a 3K 40-41 minutes, then should swim 60x50m R:6 with average 38"(will be around +2~3 seconds deviation for non-stop swim).

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by SA on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:47 pm

The SA swim team has its own special training secrets  Smile

an introduction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhH3K_GTT-s

the cunning training plan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytJH71E0SUw

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by s.sciame on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:15 pm

nightcrawler wrote:The less the repetition distance the better the technique will be. In this manner, 25s are better than the 50s, 3 seconds rest between 25s is not precise, according to your reaction time it can be 2.5, 3.5, 2, 2.25, 2,70 etc but 6 seconds among 50s more precisely measurable.

If you can do properly, 200x25m 2 with 3 seconds rest also can work for 5k swim race. The above are not the absolute truth but my way of reaching the goal.

And I find it an interesting and innovative way. Some other thoughts after today's session: first of all, by doing these 25m sets with TT I can be quite precise with rests as I count the beeps at the wall (I also count SPL and pushoff beeps). I use TT for these sets also to do stroke rate development: I started a few weeks ago at 62SPM/20SPL, then 63SPM/20SPL and so on. Today I tried for 1h at 66SPM/20SPL resting 4 beeps (ie 3.63s), after succeeding 40' at the same pace 2 days ago.

At 50' into the set I could still go on (could still make the interval) but I decided to stop because I was coming slightly behind the target pace. I checked hearth rate and it was 144, only barely higher than it was in the previous 2 sessions where I swam with this gear respectively for 20' and 40'. In fact I wasn't aerobically much taxed (as I said I could still make the interval), the stroke after 40' just started to shorten for some other reasons (neuro muscular or metabolic reasons?).

I think this is quite normal for an endurance/aerobic set: heart rate stays pretty stable, perceived effort to some extent too, but at some point the stroke starts to deteriorate anyway. I believe this is a crucial aspect for any distance swimmer who races over 3k and up (ie anything that lasts more than 40'). So heart rate is a good way to evaluate effort but not the only one. Does it make sense?

Salvo

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by s.sciame on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:22 pm

SA wrote:The SA swim team has its own special training secrets  Smile

an introduction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhH3K_GTT-s

the cunning training plan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytJH71E0SUw

So is it your team? Did you prescribe them a 200x100? Wink

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:25 pm

s.sciame wrote:
nightcrawler wrote:The less the repetition distance the better the technique will be. In this manner, 25s are better than the 50s, 3 seconds rest between 25s is not precise, according to your reaction time it can be 2.5, 3.5, 2, 2.25, 2,70 etc but 6 seconds among 50s more precisely measurable.

If you can do properly, 200x25m 2 with 3 seconds rest also can work for 5k swim race. The above are not the absolute truth but my way of reaching the goal.

And I find it an interesting and innovative way. Some other thoughts after today's session: first of all, by doing these 25m sets with TT I can be quite precise with rests as I count the beeps at the wall (I also count SPL and pushoff beeps). I use TT for these sets also to do stroke rate development: I started a few weeks ago at 62SPM/20SPL, then 63SPM/20SPL and so on. Today I tried for 1h at 66SPM/20SPL resting 4 beeps (ie 3.63s), after succeeding 40' at the same pace 2 days ago.

At 50' into the set I could still go on (could still make the interval) but I decided to stop because I was coming slightly behind the target pace. I checked hearth rate and it was 144, only barely higher than it was in the previous 2 sessions where I swam with this gear respectively for 20' and 40'. In fact I wasn't aerobically much taxed (as I said I could still make the interval), the stroke after 40' just started to shorten for some other reasons (neuro muscular or metabolic reasons?).

I think this is quite normal for an endurance/aerobic set: heart rate stays pretty stable, perceived effort to some extent too, but at some point the stroke starts to deteriorate anyway. I believe this is a crucial aspect for any distance swimmer who races over 3k and up (ie anything that lasts more than 40'). So heart rate is a good way to evaluate effort but not the only one. Does it make sense?

Salvo  

counting TT's beeps is not being precise, can you perform the same reaction time(push off the wall after the beep) upto with 0.1 sec precision? Let me say, noone on earth has that precision, even the olympians' each reaction time ranges +/- 0.3 seconds.This difference greats +/-1.5 seconds per 100m and as the number of repetitions increase the precision increases due to fatigue.

if you think that you can surely do them precisely with TT, then do by your way, why are you each time asking too many questions and make me spend time to answer your questions.

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by s.sciame on Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:11 pm

nightcrawler wrote:
if you think that you can surely do them precisely with TT, then do by your way, why are you each time asking too many questions and make me spend time to answer your questions.

take it easy, it's a forum, people are supposed to chat here. Anyway, if my questions are not welcome, I won't spend my time asking you anything anymore.

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by SA on Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:16 pm

Nightcrawler can be pretty grumpy, but imagine living in a country where such a Erdogan clown is ruling and people are about to give him even more power affraid

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:19 am

Salvo,
You are asking simultaneously and i m giving the answers one by one spending quite a lot of time, also in detail and by giving concrete examples, which are already exprienced and working but you are still insisting on doing something, ok it makes no sense for me, but both if you dont care and moreover still asking at least 3 questions in your each post to me, then what kind of answer are you waiting for, if you wont take into consideration why are you asking? In this case, a coach can only say that' go and do it in your way if you know too much", right? Make some emphaty and create some symphaty Smile) Keep in mind that i m already cool, just behaving normally across such abnormal posts.

SA,
He is saying everyday in the news that he loves Europe very much:)

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by s.sciame on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:19 am

In fact I had only asked why you don't swim the 75's and what you think of the 25's for distance training. I had to repeat the 2nd question cause the 1st time you replied with flip turns which was something I had not asked. The rest was just sharing some personal experience in the forum, not only with you. I don't see anything abnormal in this. Anyway, never mind.

Salvo

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:12 pm

s.sciame wrote:In fact I had only asked why you don't swim the 75's and what you think of the 25's for distance training. I had to repeat the 2nd question cause the 1st time you replied with flip turns which was something I had not asked. The rest was just sharing some personal experience in the forum, not only with you. I don't see anything abnormal in this. Anyway, never mind.

Salvo

Salvo,
We are dealing with really very stupid wasting of time issues in nowadays, people on the streets are talking everytime about politics, yes that is true, we have no patience as SA described above!

People's time and energy has already being taken and explotied by the stupid/brainless politicians!


Such being the case also you have asked several times same kind of questions that I had already answered I got mad and I am right, because we are not in the same atmosphere and respirating the same air, do you understand what I mean???

Anyway, nevermind!

Doing smaller distances as repetitions is harder than doing longer repetitions, so doing shorter repetitions is harder than longer repetitions due to the heart rate. I had already explained it in detail(theory-test-conclusion) in the beginning of the thread in detail:

nightcrawler wrote:
Subject matter is:

My Theory: Doing 50 meters with 6 seconds rest is much harder than doing 200 meters with 15 second rest. But each of the two sets should be done with 3K target race pace.

My Test: if the 50meters are with 39" average tempo, then 200 meters should be done with 3x(39"+2"turn)+39"=2:42 average tempo.
I did the below 2 sets in order to compare:
Set1: 60x50m crawl int:45" (with average 39" tempo which refers to 1:21 pace for each 100m, average heart rate:150)
Set2: 15x200m int:3:00 (with average 2:42 tempo which refers to 1:21 pace for each 100m, average heart rate:130)

My Conclusion and Proof:
Set1 is to a great extent harder than Set2, the higher the heart rate the harder the exercise. So why should I do repetitions over 50m while peraparing for a 3K race?
Doing repetitions over 50 meters are useless for any kind of race distance.
Playing ONLY with the rest durations and number of repetitions (for 400m 20x50m can be R:10" OR for 3K 60x50m can be R:6") target based workout can be planned independently from the repetition distances.

Simple but effective!

My Protocol for Some Races:
50m    freestyle:  8*25m R:30"
100m  freestyle: 16x25m R:20"
200m  freestyle: 16x50m R:15"
400m  freestyle: 20x50m R:10"
800m  freestyle: 30x50m R:8"
1500m freestyle: 40x50m R:7"
3000m freestyle: 60x50m R:6"
5000m freestyle: 100x50m R:5"
* Note again that as the target race distance increases the number of repetitions should be increased and the rest durations should be decreased.

A Sample Training Chart:


Good luck,
Nightcrawler


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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by Adivio on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:27 am

Hi nightcrawler,
I have to say that I am negatively surprised by your reaction. There have been other situations before but this one tops them all. I don't know who is usually wasting your time but maybe you should not take it out on us here in this forum.

I reckon that after your harsh reply, the reaction you will get is that people will stop asking you anything. Better safe than sorry. You are a coach, you should actually encourage people to ask you questions, stupid ones or smart ones and not make them feel afraid to do it. But that's just my opinion.

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Re: Training for Long Distance Swimming

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:43 am

Adivio,
If someone asks insistently and non-stop same kind of questions and expecting different answers, what would you do?

My reaction in this case normally was:
"if you think that you can surely do them precisely with TT, then do by your way, why are you each time asking too many questions and make me spend time to answer your questions"

It is more important(the first step) to learn how to ask a question than how to answer the question. That's it, no more no less.

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