Exciting New (old) Drill

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Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by cottmiler on Mon May 08, 2017 10:28 am

At the risk of just talking to myself as usual, here goes:

Whilst on the running machine I was looking at the Thorpe Swim Drills which I think originated from SA or zenturtle on T.I. recently and came across this drill.

Taking up Catch-up position, stroke with one arm and at the end of the push, take the hand behind the body and tap the water just behind your back before recovery and then repeat with the other arm stroke.

The aim is to get momentarily into streamlined position like 6-1-6 really. The first few laps were a bit ropey but then it soon became easy. If it's made Ian Thorpe then it can't be bad.

-0-

P.S Has anyone tried to make Paul Newsome's Powerballs?

http://www.feelforthewater.com/

Knowing the cost of Australian products I estimate these would cost $20 a pop!


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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by SA on Wed May 10, 2017 1:12 pm

You are not alone Cottmiler. I am used to talking to a wall too by now.
Just use the forum as  backup diary in the cloud, to see what you where doing back then.
In the mean time I know i am planting little seeds in some peoples brains with my monologues. Hopefully the right ones. Very Happy

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by cottmiler on Wed May 10, 2017 1:29 pm

I avidly read your stuff on T.I and here and there was a lot more feedback on the Swim Smooth forum.

What surprises me is how few amateurs worldwide are actually interested in the mechanics of swimming and like to compare views.

I keep putting up palstani "business" cards at pools I go to but no new members have joined since Shark dipped in.

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by SA on Wed May 10, 2017 1:55 pm

Its becoming a lot of recycling of old stuff. How much can you say about swim mechanics in the end?
The basics are not that complicated. Is there a forum about walking? Who would want to spend time there?
But still find it  interesting to see how people fill in the details differently.

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Wed May 10, 2017 4:55 pm

cottmiler wrote:I avidly read your stuff on T.I and here and there was a lot more feedback on the Swim Smooth forum.
What surprises me is how few amateurs worldwide are actually interested in the mechanics of swimming and like to compare views.
I keep putting up palstani "business" cards at pools I go to but no new members have joined since Shark dipped in.

I am repeating, there is a world outside, dont stuck between TI and Swim Smooth  Very Happy

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by cottmiler on Thu May 11, 2017 10:50 am

For those that like to view the drill, it is at 2:10.


https://youtu.be/Tgb2Li5AH7M

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by Adivio on Thu May 11, 2017 3:53 pm

Hi,
Unfortunately I needed to put swimming to survival mode. I am training for a marathon with an ambitious target time and this takes all my focus now. But will be back to hard swimming in the beginning of next fall and then I can contribute/get more from the forum. But I am still reading all posts so keep them up Smile.

Wondering what is Salvo up to now. I would love to hear news about his swimming
progress as it was going so well and in the right direction.

Adrian

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by s.sciame on Fri May 12, 2017 4:19 pm

Adivio wrote:
Wondering what is Salvo up to now. I would love to hear news about his swimming
progress as it was going so well and in the right direction.

Adrian

Hey Adrian, always nice to hear from you! And thanks for the interest Smile At the moment I'm enjoying a period of pure USRPT: after a recent talk about USRPT stuff and reading the latest Rushall's bulletins (especially the one below, the last 2 pages are really food for thought) I was puzzled enough to decide to quit my usual aerobic oriented sessions - I had got to the point of completing 70x50m on 50s coming in 45s but I couldn't improve anymore - and experiment a 12 weeks macrocycle of 100% USRPT. In each session I'm swimming 2 USRPT sets, one at 400m race pace and one at 100m race pace, and I'm currently at week 5/12. As a consequence of how the new sets are designed (ie the intensity should be high enough to fail before completing the set), my weekly yardage has dropped quite a lot and I lost some aerobic endurance. However I'm gaining speed and I'm happy with it, since speed has always been my major weakness (I already know how to regain aerobic fitness). Today for instance I completed a 30x50m on 1:00 coming in 40s with no failures, even splits (always turned at 20s and came in 40s or under) and steady SPL. I had never swum a set like this before. Then I did 19x25m on 30s coming in 17.15s and failing at reps 10, 14 and 19 (when I failed I still came in under 18s). What I'm really liking of USRPT is specificity: specific technique for an event improves during these sets like no other way. Intensity is high but you also quit the set before reaching complete exhaustion and ingraining bad technique. In the end you swim at your best skill level.

What really hit me about the bulleting below is the following statement:

The endurance/ aerobic component of a swimming race is fully achieved within 12 or fewer weeks when starting from an untrained state (Costill et al., 1990). Anaerobic (sprint) fitness is maximized in as few as four weeks. A conditioning emphasis is not a path to success in the vast majority of swimmers (Kame, Pendergast, & Termin, 1990).

Only 12 weeks. You may believe it or not but it makes sense in the end. How many times I have seen skilled swimmers totally untrained going back to the pool after a long time. Within few weeks of training they regain most of their fitness and are fast again.

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/60aTraining_Theory_1.pdf

Hope you'll get back to swimming soon!

Salvo

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by SA on Sat May 13, 2017 11:26 am

My friend Donald send me some russian tapes. They are doing some good (?) old drills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85-X7TlQa4s#t=8.624895

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfifZ1GEAHk#t=1041.289191

Endless supply of good swimmers there. I would already die at the first kicking drill.

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Mon May 15, 2017 7:24 am

s.sciame wrote:
Adivio wrote:
Wondering what is Salvo up to now. I would love to hear news about his swimming
progress as it was going so well and in the right direction.

Adrian

Hey Adrian, always nice to hear from you! And thanks for the interest Smile At the moment I'm enjoying a period of pure USRPT: after a recent talk about USRPT stuff and reading the latest Rushall's bulletins (especially the one below, the last 2 pages are really food for thought) I was puzzled enough to decide to quit my usual aerobic oriented sessions - I had got to the point of completing 70x50m on 50s coming in 45s but I couldn't improve anymore - and experiment a 12 weeks macrocycle of 100% USRPT. In each session I'm swimming 2 USRPT sets, one at 400m race pace and one at 100m race pace, and I'm currently at week 5/12. As a consequence of how the new sets are designed (ie the intensity should be high enough to fail before completing the set), my weekly yardage has dropped quite a lot and I lost some aerobic endurance. However I'm gaining speed and I'm happy with it, since speed has always been my major weakness (I already know how to regain aerobic fitness). Today for instance I completed a 30x50m on 1:00 coming in 40s with no failures, even splits (always turned at 20s and came in 40s or under) and steady SPL. I had never swum a set like this before. Then I did 19x25m on 30s coming in 17.15s and failing at reps 10, 14 and 19 (when I failed I still came in under 18s). What I'm really liking of USRPT is specificity: specific technique for an event improves during these sets like no other way. Intensity is high but you also quit the set before reaching complete exhaustion and ingraining bad technique. In the end you swim at your best skill level.    

What really hit me about the bulleting below is the following statement:

The endurance/ aerobic component of a swimming race is fully achieved within 12 or fewer weeks when starting from an untrained state (Costill et al., 1990). Anaerobic (sprint) fitness is maximized in as few as four weeks. A conditioning emphasis is not a path to success in the vast majority of swimmers (Kame, Pendergast, & Termin, 1990).

Only 12 weeks. You may believe it or not but it makes sense in the end. How many times I have seen skilled swimmers totally untrained going back to the pool after a long time. Within few weeks of training they regain most of their fitness and are fast again.  

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/60aTraining_Theory_1.pdf

Hope you'll get back to swimming soon!

Salvo

Welcome Salvo,
I am sure that you will find the answers of your questions in USRPT, it is not only good for team swimmers but also very usefeul for adult individual performers.
Good luck.

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Mon May 15, 2017 7:26 am

SA wrote:My friend Donald send me some russian tapes. They are doing some good (?) old drills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85-X7TlQa4s#t=8.624895

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfifZ1GEAHk#t=1041.289191

Endless supply of good swimmers there. I would already die at the first kicking drill.
SA,
I stayed for 4 years in Russia, was joining the sessions of a Russian Club 2 days a week, those were magnificient days Very Happy

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by s.sciame on Mon May 15, 2017 12:25 pm

nightcrawler wrote:
Welcome Salvo,
I am sure that you will find the answers of your questions in USRPT, it is not only good for team swimmers but also very usefeul for adult individual performers.
Good luck.

Thanks NC. Yes, I'm really liking the pure USRPT format. I had already tried it before but I used to mix USRPT sessions with other training methods and this way I had fallen into the mixed training mixed results trap. Now I understand that fully embracing the approach is better.

Good luck to you for your incoming race.
Salvo

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Mon May 15, 2017 2:21 pm

I am using USRPT principles in a different manner modified according to longer distances such as 3K,5K, because these are my target events. I like doing 50m and 100m sets. For 200m or 400m races USRPT exactly works as is mentioned in the articles, but for longer distance events such as distances over 1.5K it is needed to be modified. In principle, if the pace is stable, then the amount of rest should be longer when the repetition distance increases.

If the target distance is over 3K then the 20 seconds rest is suitable for the 200m repetitions, rest periods for 50-100m repetitions should be shorter. According to my tests an example 3K race event's USRPT set should have the below rests between the repetitions and the target paces should be determined according to these below:
- 80x50m 6-7 seconds rest (or 3 bubbles and push off the wall at thr 4th bubble)
- 40x100m 9-10 seconds rest (or 5 bubbles and push off the wall at thr 6th bubble)
- 30x150m 14-15 seconds rest (or 7 bubbles and push off the wall at thr 8th bubble)
- 20x200m 18-20 seconds rest (or 9 bubbles and push off the wall at the 10th bubble)

Another way:
If you dont want to do constant intervals, then just do bubbles(1 bubble= 2 seconds) among the repetitions and meausre the total set time, try imrpving the total set duration in each session.

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by Adivio on Mon May 15, 2017 2:36 pm

Hi Salvo,
great to hear from you. I may try USRPT myself later on. How many times you train
per week now? And what's your target race?
How about testing yourself during the 12 weeks program? Do you do it at all or just
checking from the USRPT sets how it is going?
Adrian

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by s.sciame on Mon May 15, 2017 4:25 pm

Adivio wrote:Hi Salvo,
great to hear from you. I may try USRPT myself later on. How many times you train
per week now? And what's your target race?
How about testing yourself during the 12 weeks program? Do you do it at all or just
checking from the USRPT sets how it is going?
Adrian

Adrian, at the moment I'm doing 3 sessions per week (mon, wed, fri) which really is the bare mininum. I'll add a 4th sunday session in open water soon (so far I chose to go running on sundays just for the sake to stay outdoor). My target distances are 400m and 100m, so each session includes one set at 400m race pace and one set at 100m race pace (not that I'm currently doing any master races, but perhaps in the next fall I will). According to Dr. Rushall it is important that each of these 2 sets, which is a specific training stimulus, is repeated at least 3 times throughout the week, preferably with an even distribution. So, if you swim only 3 to 4 times per week, all of your sessions should be USRPT. If instead you start mixing things up and don't get those 6 sets (at least) per week down, it doesn't work. I'll do a time trial on both distances at the end of the macrocycle. In the middle I can easily detect progress by tracking the outcome of each set (ie number of reps bf the first failure and number of total reps achieved for a given pace which is gradually incremented).

Cheers,
Salvo

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by Adivio on Tue May 23, 2017 12:14 pm

Thanks Salvo.
I wonder how I can apply USRPT for IronMan distance. If my target is 1:50/100m, wouldn't this translate to too slow interval training?

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Re: Exciting New (old) Drill

Post by s.sciame on Tue May 23, 2017 5:27 pm

Adivio wrote:Thanks Salvo.
I wonder how I can apply USRPT for IronMan distance. If my target is 1:50/100m, wouldn't this translate to too slow interval training?

Hi Adrian, as you may already know the original Rushall's protocol covers distances up to 1500m. For longer distances you should either keep the reps short while reducing the recovery times, or do longer reps (200s, 300s, 400s etc). Personally I'd choose the first way, with short reps you have more chances to practice good technique. Nightcrawler's workouts are perfect for your IronMan goal. The other way (increasing repetition distance) is less and less USRPT and more and more traditional aerobic training.

Finally, I also heard of swimmers who just trained with pure USRPT for relatively short distances (eg 400m, 500y) and did well in longer ow events as well because of some carry over effect. Who knows, if you always train at faster paces and improve form, that 1:50/100m could eventually become an all day pace...

Salvo

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