Stroke Length

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by Sprinter on Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:12 am

SA wrote:


Do you start and keep a 6BK the whole length?

I do  a bit the same with fins sprinting 25 m, max kick and adding the arms but i do loose track of the number of kicks often. All I know is that some kicks connect with the pull and roll, but it dont know if its a 6BK or  a 8Bk.

Regarding rythym/connection, currently (and also as I remember the past) I do not care (at all). I don't feel there is an issue. No coach yet said anything in this direction. So I treat it as a non-issue. This might mean that there is simply no issue, or that it is relatively minor compared to other problems.

I assume that I do a 6BK. Not 100% sure about the lower stroke rates, but I believe so.
Definitely for stroke rates higher than 80 strokes per min, a good 6BK is hard enough.

Back to the "connection": My current feelings are that the "connection" is much more of a problem than a solution. Currently it feels much better and much more important to me, that the kick and the pull is (rather) *independent*. Might be a stage in the development. But with a stronger kick came much more core stability. Much more control for the pull -- no more wobbly rotating around. Sometimes I feel the urge to check that I can just stop any pull-movement at any moment, and the kick and the main thrust of swimming just continues. Try it: swim hard, with full kick, and randomly freeze the upper body at any time, for some time, and just continue as if nothing had happened. Now that's likely a bit exaggerated, and the liberated feeling I have about it (no more being held captive by the all-dominating rotation) might be temporarily, and then will just vanish, but nevertheless, seems to have some truth for me.

Might be a stage in the development. But my current feel is that the kick creates the basic propulsion (I guess the (good) kick during full stroke should currently amount to 25m in 25sec pure kicking), that runs on its own, like a motor, or more like flying (like Superman -- just flying Smile ), and with the pull I just concentrate on projecting as much power as possible. The feeling of "independence" here is, that I can just concentrate on the pull, don't need to worry at all about the legs (except of the constant current monitoring, mostly about the straight legs -- any bend in the knees I feel as a very disturbing sudden heavy spot, sudden unbalance, sudden loose of independence).

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by Sprinter on Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:59 am

Just an addition on the rotation: I believe in that past I did the rotation on its own -- it was kind of a dictator, which dominated the stroke, "had to be there", and the rest of the stroke had to fit into it.

I believe that was the main reason for the big instability in swimming results, and strong dependency on the current day, hour, minute, fleeting great feelings, and a lot of "don't get into it". Feeling very unwell when having to demonstrate something, needed my long rituals of preparations.

Now it feels MUCH more stable. Feels good. I now KNOW it, can do it. No more mysticism (of the "holy rotation").

For the higher stroke rates, say above 80 strokes per minute, the rather flat swimming comes very natural. Now for the lower stroke rates (I believe 60 strokes per min is my minimum, shouldn't go lower than that) I am re-adding some rotation, in a very controlled way: Just adding a bit rotation really makes a big difference concerning the lat engagement, just rotating a bit into the extension, feeling a bit more "glide" on the sides, on the lat, and it makes a big difference. That now feels right to me: just rotating enough to reap the benefits. No more rotation on its own sake. The old feeling was that you had to do the "extension and rotation", and sometimes you feel some benefit, often you don't. The new feeling is that it is fully under control, not the rotation dominates me, but I use it.

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by s.sciame on Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:45 am

Sprinter wrote:
I never find yet anything boring -- but I "cheat" in the sense that I nearly only do short high-intensity sets. For kicking, I've seen such sets recommended several times also for the long-distance swimmers.


So it seems that practicing kick in isolation, also for distance swimmers, makes sense only if it's short high intensity. That makes sense after all. The famous laps with kickboard at cruising pace are only for social purpose then. Swim Smooth itself recommends the torpedo kick drill, which is pushoff and kick all out until you surface (then swim back with an easy freestyle and feel the legs lighter). Moreover it's when you go all out that you get a chance to stretch the ankles better.
I'll try to integrate those short high intensity sets in my routine, hope this time I'll commit more on this side.

Thanks,
Salvo

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:49 pm

I am fed up with TI and SS oriented useless rubbish, for ages we have been doing those above without any improvement, I am really fed up! Also throw your kickboards, fins, pullbuoy and hand paddles to the wastebasket, they are also useless, artificial, they are not beneficial unless you are not a beginner. We have been kicking with a board, pulling with pullbuoy+paddles for ages, are those equipments still improving us? No, never, staying the same, hell!

Let me share a real life drill instead of futile isolation exercises:

I recommend 16x25m on 45" freestyle swimming with targeting "6 SPL" for each 25m regardless of tempo. Count 1-2-3-4 while the recovery arm travels above the water. In other words recover slower than usual but also dont stop(wait) the stroke during recovery. I mean: After he recovery arm reaches the head level slowly start pulling the front extending arm (front quadrant timing should be used as a classical swim technique). Also in the pull and push phases dont be quick, pull and push with the same velocity, dont accelerate in order to not to miss any water.

In the beginning I could do with 9 strokes now I am able to do with 5 SPLs. It is a great kicking exercise by using core stabilization, teaching gluteus and psoas muscles to balance and stabilize the torso efficienly, also a great high elbow recovery and a rotation exercise in which you can control your recoveries and side balances. (of couse I do not need to remind that we should breath in each 3 strokes! Very Happy ).

At the end of the set do a classical set such as 10x50m as you always do, you will see that your standart SPL unbelievably decreases and feel self-confience in the water, more capability of power usage, through the medium of the improved side balance, core stability supported by pre-stimulated iliopsoas muscles and as a result a more efficient kicking which drives you forward rather than lifting your legs.

I name this drill as SEFT CONTROL DRILL or THE POWER OF THE SOUL (ILIOPSOAS MUSCLE):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN9gi-Z-8Qc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs_ARQEzOw8&t=216s

Happy laps with less stress and dont forget my favour! Laughing

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by SA on Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:10 am

Ha ha, Goooo NIghtcrawler!
Is this how you swim now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DNDkGkhV1A

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:46 am

Thanks SA, i am doing my best for both my and my pals' improvement.

In the above video you sent, stroke rate too high(1:15-1:20) pulling and kicking with over effort, lots of power there, heart rate increases so much in such type of stroke, it doesnt work in longer distances. Stroke rate and strokes per lap would be better if in normal ranges.

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by SA on Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:23 am

re-adding some rotation, in a very controlled way: Just adding a bit rotation really makes a big difference concerning the lat engagement, just rotating a bit into the extension, feeling a bit more "glide" on the sides, on the lat, and it makes a big difference. That now feels right to me: just rotating enough to reap the benefits. No more rotation on its own sake. The old feeling was that you had to do the "extension and rotation", and sometimes you feel some benefit, often you don't. The new feeling is that it is fully under control, not the rotation dominates me, but I use it. wrote:

I think I am doing more or less the same by adding shoulder roll on a deminished hip roll. THe hip roll shouldnt go out of control and overshoot from left to right like a big mass hanging in weak springs.
It has to be light and controlled by strong muscles, transferring force further to the shoulders.
(it all depends where you coming from if this makes sense, its a process for people coming from overrotation I guess)
At the moment I like to rotate and reach the shoulders a bit extra right for catch while keeping the low arm stable and wide.
This gives a great stretch and a big claw in the water to realease and untwist to shoot you forward a moment later.
Like the guy starts doing at 1 min 17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL_OSDV4ZlA
At the moment  this is  a fundamental action to get good traction and powerfull follow up for me.
Big strokes, big power, feels great.(as long as you can keep it working)

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:38 pm

Hey SA,

Havent you fed up with listening the "apocryphal recommendations/comments/advices" of the people (like the ones in this video and/or P.Newsome, T.Laughlin, etc...) who has uncertain experience and disputable knowledge?
Such internet super heros are talking about swimming giving advices more than the Olympians and Elit Swimmers do. Dont let anyone confuse your beautiful mind!

Do a 50x100m freestyle with interval: target pace+20 seconds. This will teach you the hip rotation and set the connection chain between the muscles and also during the set you will realize your weaknesses that you should focus on.

Water is the best teacher.

Good luck.

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by SA on Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:43 pm

HI Nightcrawler,
You are right, I dont give a damn anymore what a swimcoach has to say. I solved my personal swimming puzzle and just know when its going right or wrong.
The reduced hip roll and increases shoulder roll was the last part of the puzzle.
Increasing the elliptical range of path of the shoulderjoint to the max in reach and some twist, using trunkmuscles to move that point has finally made the swim stroke  feel like rowing where you can transfer all the power to the water like on dryland.
Adding that to the right swim posture and tone, a good catch and pull and thats it.
Maybe adding undulation can be the cherry on the cake, but I am happy how it is working now.
I think I understand your swimming roll without kick better also. Roll just happens and can be accentuated or not as a choice with the kick.
In a sense the magic has gone. Its all very simple basically, but it takes years to make it become simple.
Almost as simple as doing manmakers, well ...almost..;-)

I am pretty suspicious about Terrys advices. If you swim 10 years without having any clue what you are doing,  who guarantees me that  you have arrived at the end of the road and give good advice after 30 years if you are such a slow learner?
Paul is a smart guy who knows how and has the drive to get his act together. I agree with almost all he says and think its a good approach to get the majority swimming better in a reasonable learning time.
You just have to keep thinking for yourself and separate the business talk from the usefull stuff they present.

this is a typical conversation on the TI forum.
Still find the explanations from the coach very personal and unclear.
Can you make sense of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abschwar View Post
I've worked through most of the Ultra-Efficient Freestyle e-book and videos, and while my TI-style front crawl has improved, I'm baffled by some of the terms and concepts. Can you help?
"engaged core" and "stable core": Does this mean to use ab muscles to initiate body roll? It makes my legs kick "furiously" and is a lot of work. All of which, I'm sure, is not the intention. How do you "engage" your core?

It means using all of the core muscles, especially the lats, maintain a stable and tone core. There is not one muscle you hold tight, it creating a tone vessel with whole body coordination. You will feel the lats engaged and connected to the high hip in Slot to Skate drill. This is where the magic happens, and weight of arm is driven down and forward from high hip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abschwar View Post
"weight shift": Do you actually feel your weight shift? If so, does it feel like one side of your body tipping over to the other?
Adding to the answer of engaged/stable core, the high side (recovery) dropping into water, rotates your body as you drive from the high hip - not from a pulling arm. Think pivot about the spine, not tipping over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abschwar View Post
"holding the water" with hands. You actually feel your hand anchored (so to speak) in the water? I never feel this.
This holding water or creating thick water with you low side arm is a very subtle feeling, it's not obvious to those new to this feeling. Just begin to be aware of light pressure on forearm and palm. Forearm and palm remain on same plane, like your top knuckles, wrist and elbow are fused together as one unit. Avoid the impulse to grab and push water back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abschwar View Post
"bodyline is stable and streamlined": Traditional swimming uses the term "streamline" to mean holding arms tight above head and compressing the body tightly, usually for an upside-down dolphin kick after flip turn. But what does "streamline" mean in a TI context? It seems to me that reaching for the VW Beetle bumper puts your arm in a downward position. Hardly streamlined with the body behind it.

Streamline off the wall is passive streamline, arms not moving. Streamline in this context is with every stroke, trimming and maintaining the shape of the vessel, no twisting/or bending spine and going soft in middle - swimming in the smallest space possible. Reaching over the hood, "touch the bumper" is to get your lead arm sloping downward below the lungs which balances the vessel keeping hips/legs high in the water and takes pressure off the shoulder. The human impulse is to reach high or scoop toward surface, sending arm above the lungs - back arches and hips drop *increasing* drag profile, shoulders over taxed due to lack of leverage. This is counter intuitive to conventional wisdom.

Compared to this , reading Sheila Taorminas stuff was like coming home, finally  recognizable descriptions and totally sensible explanations. Same with Tjfry and some other swimmers.
TI always gives the impression you are missing something, that you are missing out on a secret, but when you see most of their coaches swim, you dont want to copy them.
Ok enough TI bashing. Sometimes they drive me nuts with their typical talk..

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Re: Stroke Length

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:54 am

Excuse me, but too much talking and redundant sentences, I couldnt read the whole post!

The problem is: "Swimming didnt choose us, we chose swimming".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMLJ8k7I6nU

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Re: Stroke Length

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