Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:05 pm

29.07.2017-1000m time trial, SCM (13:45)
notes: i had a short time afyer my swimclinic, i did a time trial while my students were waiting me.

30.07.2017-5000m-open water training in Marmara Sea.
2*2500m time trial(1st: 34:25 avg pace: 1:23, 2nd: 34:10 avg pace:1:22) in Marmara Sea, dirty(polluted) sea near Istanbul harbour where some of my students training at the weekends. The water was smooth but unpleasant to swim due to plastic waste and also there was billons of dead jelly fish sliding through my body, it was disgusting to swim there. Anyway it was an ow experience for me before the race, i tested my race technique (https://youtu.be/XIQi6U7FqtA) in the open water, glad to see that it works very well.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by SA on Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:44 pm

Is this you Nightcrawler?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp4eG2n30MI
the swimmer is using the path of less resistance, by leading with the elbows and karate chopping too much with sharp edge of the hand instead of using the full surface area when pushing.
Possibly its the best solution for the given DNA of the swimmer.
In theory a bigger paddle is better, (slip = waisted water acceleration) but you have to be able to generate the force to drive it stroke after stroke after stroke. If you havent, and still want to achieve a certain strokerate you have to reduce the size of your paddle, swimming in a lower gear with a bit of slip on the tyres. Swimming with paddles wont make you faster in that case either.

This isnt a shoulder flexibility issue. Its simply a strenght and/or an awereness issue.
Its possible you just cant get stronger, also possible using a bigger paddle  will produce shoulder problems.
Only possible solution to not load the shoulder more, but still get better traction is curving the arm down a fraction earlier and deeper to make the catch easier. Now it looks too much like the typical TI flaw of extending , breaking the wrist on late pull and continue with dropped elbow.
The whole picture is not bad, but there is some of that in it.
But you have already seen that yourself offcourse Wink

Probably you are right that all this technique detail stuff wont make much of a difference, but we will never know .
Sun Yang has superior arm traction mechanics compared to Cochrane (both aleady on a high level), but whats the use of pointing it out?
Cochrane probably cant copy some of Yangs technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASE2oCEczuQ

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:33 pm

Possibly its the best solution for the given DNA of the swimmer.
In theory a bigger paddle is better, (slip = waisted water acceleration) but you have to be able to generate the force to drive it stroke after stroke after stroke. If you havent, and still want to achieve a certain strokerate you have to reduce the size of your paddle, swimming in a lower gear with a bit of slip on the tyres. Swimming with paddles wont make you faster in that case either.

you wrote this above, yes good diagnostic!
i have small hands and thin forearms, for this reason in order to accelerate i have to find out the path with less resistance and use proper cadance to keep momentum. in this manner using the full arm with elbows works better for my DNA than deeping the arm in the front end.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:15 pm

by the way, cochrane's stroke is much similar to mine:
https://youtu.be/-XddciDGzvk

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by SA on Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:36 pm

Yep I think we agree.
Cochrane has a bit of a scrappy stroke with the bent arms arm and the easy inward high elbow style with a shorter high force length of the pull. Having a small elbow angle and pulling close to the body is easier, than pulling deep in solid water with a longer lever.
Its a good model for most swimmers to strive for I think. This is not an extreme motion to execute.
Its still much better than most are using, but easier on the shoulder as Sun Yangs style.
Sun Yangs paddle is very big and vertical early in the stroke, and he uses it all the way to the back.
Dont know any elite swimmer who has better traction mechanics, but its impossible to imitate for avarage adult swimmers.
Also like how he pulls the the whole upperarm/forarm/hand back in his scapular plane over a long path with little relative movement in the upperarm/forarm/hand paddle.
This position/path is the strongest to pull the paddle back I think.


I dont think you can reduce your drag much further, balance good, kick good.
I still think you could use your trunk a bit more to reach a bit more extension through the body (not the arm)  and pull back with the trunk, in Gianiottis style, but its a tricky optimum. Too much and it feels powerfull, but it creates drag, too little and you leave a powersource underused.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by SA on Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:14 am

what do you think of this stroke Nightcrawler?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYpeVJS9rGY

Its a very rough and simple big action, but  effective.
Her one arm swimming is crap.
There are some dynamic mechanisms at work in full stroke that one arm swimming doesnt capture very well.
Your stroke is more refined and active from the chest down, but is missing a tiny bit of what she is doing if you know what I mean, and its not about the discussed arm mechanics.(but maybe one isnt usefull without the other)

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:13 am

Today's session:

31.07.2017 (SCM 4500m, Morning Session 6:30-7:40) 
Set1:1500m crawl with paddles (20:34)
Set2:1500m crawl doggy paddle drill (23:48)
Set3:52x25m crawl int:21" (avg: 18")
(50m recovery among the sets)

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:22 am

SA wrote:what do you think of this stroke Nightcrawler?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYpeVJS9rGY

Its a very rough and simple big action, but  effective.
Her one arm swimming is crap.
There are some dynamic mechanisms at work in full stroke that one arm swimming doesnt capture very well.
Your stroke is more refined and active from the chest down, but is missing a tiny bit of what she is doing if you know what I mean, and its not about the discussed arm mechanics.(but maybe one isnt usefull without the other)

Good things: rhythm and fluency, high heels and fine horizontal balance.

Bad things:
- She is breathing from one side, for me the first key element is the symmetrical breathing which is crucial for balancing the load of neck muscles. Olympians breath from one side in the races but in the trainings they are breathing in each sides(breathing in each 3-5 strokes or in each 2-4 strokes but by varying the side in each 25 or 50m).
- She is moving her head up and down also left and right so much, this is not good and very tiring.
- She is not gliding any more, a stroke has some glide, I am also swimming almost with this cadanda but there should be a little pause in the front end in order to perform better catch.
- She is throwing her arms too wide which may causes fatigue. The shortest distance between two points is a line, we are not waiting a straight line from such a swinging stroke type but can be less curved with more rotation and glide.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:28 pm

31.07.2017-Evening Session-SCM 1500m
1500m freestyle (21:10)
splits:
500m:7:18
1000m:14:20

notes: i had a bad mood in the afternoon, decided to get water theraphy to relax. Started with a relaxed pace, then in each 500m descended the pace 2-3 secs per 100m.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by SA on Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:17 am

Bad things: - She is breathing from one side, for me the first key element is the symmetrical breathing which is crucial for balancing the load of neck muscles. Olympians breath from one side in the races but in the trainings they are breathing in each sides(breathing in each 3-5 strokes or in each 2-4 strokes but by varying the side in each 25 or 50m). - She is moving her head up and down also left and right so much, this is not good and very tiring. - She is not gliding any more, a stroke has some glide, I am also swimming almost with this cadanda but there should be a little pause in the front end in order to perform better catch. - She is throwing her arms too wide which may causes fatigue. The shortest distance between two points is a line, we are not waiting a straight line from such a swinging stroke type but can be less curved with more rotation and glide. wrote:

You sound like a TI coach discussing Janet Evans stroke.
What about your talk about KSI energy, DNA etc?
All details. Its about how she generates power from her body and knows how to connect it with a pretty effective paddle action.
I see a rough unpolished diamond. The stripped to the bare minimum backbone of a shoulder driven stroke.
But a very strong backbone. The woman probably beats most man in a wrestling contest.
She probably has a lot of open water miles covered and half learned how to connect her powerfull upperbody with an aquatic rear end.
Its exactly this style i like to see a bit more in your stroke in contrast to your slightly TI like style and comments.
But like you said over and over, this is her DNA, and yours is different, so thats how it is and will be.



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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:29 am

My comments are not realted with TI, TI is 15 yers old, the things I am saying are 100+ year old. I have 30+ years swimming background and when there wasnt TI my coaches are talking about the same concepts which TI says. So throw the TI to the waste-bin and think logically.

1st thing should be symmetry, it was also the same since Johnny Weismuller's time or maybe before, because in every sport eve in football using the both sides is essential.

2nd thing is the energy saving and injury freeness, in all sports these two concepts should be there. Her stroke is not energy saving and also inclined to injury because there is almost no glide in her stroke, I took an operation from my left shoulder due to this reason and changed my by adding a bit glide. I bet that she cannot manage decreasing pace swith this technique, her technique is like balance-lost car, even a child can see this, in fact I asked my nephew and she commented on her stroke  Smile

After being able to do the classical and basic aspects then one can build his/her own stroke, but she is not in that level according to the video.


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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by cottmiler on Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:43 am

You mention a young relative, a Niece who commented on a swim stroke.

Do you get to train her in swimming technique?

If so she could go far with your knowledge and skill.


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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by SA on Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:51 am

yeah, thats a funny point, she cant swim slow probably. Together with that bad one arm swimming it shows that she is missing something, but uses the dynamic full stroke inertia, acceleration whatever happens at a certain strokerate to good effect.
I find it an interesting extreme stroke.
I dont agree she has good balance. Here lower body is so passive with enough tone but very minimal reactive kicks that her arm force on the water pulls the lower body down.
In my view first priority should be the allow herself to deminish the energy flow to the upperbody 10% and invest that in better kicking technique driven from the stomach to just get those legs up more and have some more rotational drive from the rear. Now she just pulls those legs along too much.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:13 am

cottmiler wrote:You mention a young relative, a Niece who commented on a swim stroke.

Do you get to train her in swimming technique?

If so she could go far with your knowledge and skill.

When she was 7 years I taught her freestyle, backstroke and breastroke techniques, but she didnt want to continue because thanks god she is not brainless like me, didnt make fault by choosing swimming a as a hobby. Now she is going to music school, playing violin and piano, aiming at being a violin virtuoso in the future.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:20 am

01.08.2017 - Morning Session (6:30-7:15)- LCM 3000m
2000m crawl with paddles (28:35, pace:1:26)
1000m doggy paddle drill

Notes: Today the short course pool was closed due to cleaning, i was obliged to swim in 50m pool. I was in bad mood again, didnt want to swim and didnt have motivation. I cut off the distance and got out of the pool earlier.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:37 pm

what do you think about training in 25m or 50m pool, which one is better for you?

an article about it:
https://www.yourswimlog.com/long-course-swimming/

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:01 am

Today's session:

02.08.2017 - SCM 4700m - Morning session 6:30-7:40

50m crawl easy

Set1: 3000m crawl with paddles (41:25, pace:1:23)

50m crawl easy

Set2: 1000m doggy paddle drill (15:21, pace:1:32)

50m crawl easy

Set3: 20x25m crawl int:22" (average:18")

50m crawl easy

Notes: Today I swam with my usual pace, it was fine.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:04 am

Today's session:

03.08.2017 - SCM 4800m - Morning session 6:30-7:40

50m crawl easy

Set1: 2000m crawl with paddles (First 1000m split: 13:40, total time: 27:35, average pace:1:22)

500m crawl easy (7:07, recovery pace: 1:26)

Set2: 1500m doggy paddle drill (23:35, average pace:1:34)

50m crawl easy

Set3: 24x25m crawl int:21" (average:18")

100m crawl easy

Notes: Today I swam with my usual pace.
I like to keep control and swimming by descending pace as a strategy... if they couldnt beat me until that time, cant beat me in the middle of the race.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by SharkTank on Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:31 pm

I think descending pace is a good idea, if you are in-shape and can stretch it out front. So the work is done early in the race, when you can reap "free distance" and then hang on for the ride.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:08 pm

I m swimming alone early in the mornings, there is no partner who can stimulate me, i motivate myself and sometimes talk with myself while training saying that "faster, you can do it, two more laps left come on, etc". Even keeping the pace same is very hard in these conditions. In race conditions it is easier for me to descend the pace while oppponents are around me.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by SharkTank on Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:14 pm

I'm kinda the opposite. I swim harder alone - as I have a GPS in my swim cap recording distance and time to the second.

With opponents I find the fastest swimmer with the biggest beer gut and draft all the way 'round. It's EZ swimming but so stupid it's slowing me down!

Next race I will take it out front and probably end up on the shore-line defibrillator. At least I'll die trying.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:28 pm

Then you must find the faster biggest beer gut for drafting Smile

Will there be someone from our forum in Budapest Balaton Lake on the 9-13 august, we may come together.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:12 am

Bugunku antrenmanim:

04.08.2017 - SCM 4500m - Morning Session 6:30-7:40

50m crawl easy

Set1: 1500m crawl with paddles (21:28) (Average Pace:1:22) 

50m crawl easy

Set2: 800m doggy paddle drill (12:30) (Average Pace:1:34) 

50m crawl easy

Set3:
10x25m crawl R:3" (total time: 3:37) int:4'

10x25m crawl R:3" (total time: 3:37) int:4'

10x25m crawl R:3" (total time: 3:34) int:4'

10x25m crawl R:3" (total time: 3:33) int:4'

10x25m crawl R:3" (total time: 3:31) int:4'

10x25m crawl R:3" (total time: 3:28) int:4'

50m crawl time trial, water start (32")

300m crawl easy

Not: I had neck gripes in the morning, couldnt concentrate on the training well enough, but it was strange that my times were better than I expected, it might me due to sneaky improvement. Very Happy

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:52 pm

04.08.2017 - 1000m - Lunch time session

1000m crawl, time trial (Total time: 13:48.65, pace 1:23)

Lap splits:
1. 00:40.35
2. 00:40.81
3. 00:41.05
4. 00:40.84
5. 00:40.56
6. 00:40.87
7. 00:40.81
8. 00:41.39
9. 00:41.31
10. 00:41.96
11. 00:41.35
12. 00:41.98
13. 00:41.19
14. 00:41.99
15. 00:41.46
16. 00:41.66
17. 00:42.13
18. 00:42.28
19. 01:24.66

It was fine with a crampy neck and the morning session's fatigue.

I think I can maintain this pace in 3K with racing suit.

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Re: Nightcrawler's Journey to World Masters Swimming Championships 2017

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:56 am

Today's session:

06.08.2017 - SCM 5500m - Morning Session 7:30-8:50

50m crawl easy

Set1: 2000m crawl with paddles (27:29) (Average Pace:1:22) 

50m crawl easy

Set2: 2000m doggy paddle drill (30:57) (Average Pace:1:33) 

50m crawl easy

Set3:
48x25m crawl int:21" (avg:18")

50m crawl easy

Not: Today i swam with my average paces. I m reluctant and exhausted, looking forward to finish this race and have a holiday for a couole of  weeks in Antalya. 5 days left for the competition, i will push hard until wednesday and take a rest on thursday, then on friday i m gonna do my best in the race.

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