Why does swimming feel so awkward?

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Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by cottmiler on Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:11 am

This article was posted by zenturtle on T.I and is a good read.


http://www.dobkanize.com/triathlon-swimming-articles/why-does-swimming-feel-so-awkward/

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by Sprinter on Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:24 am

The most important tool for improving self-perception is not mentioned at all in this article: video-recording your swimming! (I recommend at least every 3 months.)

I furthermore belief that an instructor in the water is MUCH more useful for people with swimming-problems than the usual purely verbal teaching-style.

Of course, the TI-guys have the problem of their exaggerated rotation -- perhaps people are right when that does feel awkward?!

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:07 am

If I watched which shoe you put on in a morning then asked you to start putting the other one on first that would feeel awkward. So feeling awkward doesn't make it wrong or vice versa.
I like having a new board as no allegiance to any swim type.
When I first started swimming everything was awkward telling me to even think about shoulders or hips or any sort of body control was impossible.
But now I can control my body position Two separate TI coaches got me 75% of the way there and Adam Walker completed the jigsaw. Similar but different drills and a completely different final stroke. But the balance and body control needed are the same however we swim.
Adam uses full rotation which is supposed to be wrong but he has a different timing which makes it right. So I will disagree with anyone that says too much rotation is always wrong. Unless you've tried it for a few months after his instruction.
Swim smooth got me swim fit when I first joined their squad the 400m CSS swim was the hardest thing I'd ever done. But a few weeks of swims at speeds 4 secs either side of the CSS that the 400m swim and 200m done same day revealed soon had me swimming further and easier. Everything felt awkward at that stage.
Nowadays I wouldn't consider changing my swimsmooth training plans of at least one endurance at slower than CSS , one session say 10 to 15 100s at faster than CSS. And one pure technique session.
The only thing is I experiment with the technique sessions but commit to one type for a few months till I can do them as best as possible.
The swim smooth structure stops me becoming a drill freak and losing fitness but trying others ways always gets that feel for the water less awkward. Even the simple swim on side drill is different with swimsmooth, TI and Adam .
We all swim for different goals originally in 2011 when I retired my aim was to be able to swim 25m freestyle and then turn round and be able to swim back.
Each coach I've had has got me to a different level, Swimsmooth to greater distance and into open water, TI to feeling better in the water , Adam Walker to be confident enough at 3 miles into a 5.25 swim feeling tired to consciously switch to my version of his stroke and have the tiredness leave me.
I'm probably the slowest swimmer on here due to laziness because as I get more efficient I seem to grab back the effort required. Yesterday my Red mist
10x400 was at beep 31s 2m04s I managed first 7 before having to slow down for final three but realistically I was prob less tired than that first 400 I spluttered through at my first squad session. Really I just like coasting up and down or in a lake at 2m 10 to15 sec pace just enjoying the feel of being able to do it.
I hope I can convert a few swimsmooth to try Ti. Some TI to try Adam, Some Adam to try Swimsmooth and any other combination. Any of us that have a fixed ideas about any of them are most likely wrong
Cheers Woody



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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by cottmiler on Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:00 am

An inspiring read, woody.

I intend to investigate Swim Therapy next year following your rec.

We go on a 7 week cruise on Jan 3rd so my swimming changes to the odd bit of snorkelling fun.

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:51 am

Enjoy your hols.
It's a great set up at swim therapy they are part of the competitive swim scene .
When I went it was the wrong time for me I struggled with swimming for 90 secs of constant swimming for the initial video they do at the start of the session. Hence I did the breastroke to warm up! Also at that stage I hadn't really understood why drills helped so was all right place wrong time.
Do make sure before you spend any money that you have stood right next to Adam in a display he gives assuming he is at one of the Tri shows. Last couple of years he was in an endless pool with full camera set up enabling you to watch him both underwater and walk round in amazement trying to work out how he does it. In most demos and clips you find of him they are just above water . Watch one and find the point where he deliberately puts in a pause after a stroke in glide position, The water is still rushing towards him at 1m 05s yet when he pauses the stroke it seems forever before the water pushes him back. The pure power that his seemingly slow gliding style delivers will astound you , The rotation combined with his timing somehow defies the slow down and kickstart that swimsmooth call overgliding.
woody

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:23 am

Here's one I think you posted it yourself once just watch the pause at about 40secs how can he possibly pause and not be pushed back. He is holding on to something surely ?
Well that's what I thought I watched and watched him do this so many times and then was lucky enough to be invited in the pool with him. Adam in the centre and myself and another swimmer alongside him. we had 30 mins of the basics of his stroke during which he showed the pause to illustrate how long the forward force kept him still. I had him do again as I looked under water to check if he was holding on and was just amazed to see he was just in glide position with the momentum of his last stroke holding him there.
Since that day I've had a five hour one to one with him in Lincoln in June and attended a full days camp in Windermere in September. I have been doing his drills once a week since June and will attend another camp or one to one in the new year.
I'm not sure which is best one to one or camp. The one to one is just you ,Adam and his camera in the water. Its pretty intense.
The camps are up to 10 I think. Mine was only six tho. But after he had shown a drill then watched you individually you got to watch others trying and that also helped . Things I had missed on the one to one suddenly crystallised as I watched others being shown.
Woody
Here's the clip with the pause 40 secs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MZiNsiOPEsM

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by SA on Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:40 am

I am also a bit intrigued by Adam walker stroke, but as far as I can see it from above water he is just a damn good swimmer with very little useless movement in his stroke, good alignment and balance and a pretty smooth mover.
There still is more speed variation than most in his stroke. Only look at his bowwave growing and shrinking and how much he moves forward and backward in an endless pool.
But there is an advantage (for some) to these big long strokes with some pause compared to snooth transitions with smaller strokes.
Best is to combine these 2 to get the best of both worlds, but thats easier said than done.
To me he just looks like a good swimmer on the smooth side of TI.(regarding his catch setup and connecting with the water with his arms, only based on above water footage)
Can you describe what the exact difference with TI is?
He only uses a 2BK right?

Being fast or slow is not so much depandant on technique details I think.
Fast guys swim fast whatever they do within certain limits.
A fast freestyler ususally is fast in every stroke even if the particular technique isnt top notch.
Another artice of the difference between 2 stroke styles.

http://www.dobkanize.com/gear-testing/swimming-evaluation/

Same speed, different styles. You can swim either right or wrong.

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by Tom65 on Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:47 am

woody wrote:Here's one I think you posted it yourself once just watch the pause at about 40secs how can he possibly pause and not be pushed back. He is holding on to something surely ?
Well that's what I thought I watched and watched him do this so many times and then was lucky enough to be invited in the pool with him. Adam in the centre and myself and another swimmer alongside him. we had 30 mins of the basics of his stroke during which he showed the pause to illustrate how long the forward force kept him still. I had him do again as I looked under water to check if he was holding on and was just amazed to see he was just in glide position with the momentum of his last stroke holding him there.
Since that day I've had a five hour one to one with him in Lincoln in June and attended a full days camp in Windermere in September. I have been doing his drills once a week since June and will attend another camp or one to one in the new year.
I'm not sure which is best one to one or camp. The one to one is just you ,Adam and his camera in the water. Its pretty intense.
The camps are up to 10 I think. Mine was only six tho. But after he had shown a drill then watched you individually you got to watch others trying and that also helped . Things I had missed on the one to one suddenly crystallised as I watched others being shown.
Woody
Here's the clip with the pause 40 secs  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MZiNsiOPEsM

Whilst I don't use a glide in my freestyle I have never been against it, as I finish a lap if I'm in cruise mode I sometimes just glide to the wall, there's no massive retardation like chopping the throttle on a boat, don't even have to make a special effort with the streamlining, hook one foot on the other, one hand above the water feeling for the edge of the pool.

I do find the analogy that water offers 800 times the resistance of air or whatever that story is bewildering. Try laying on the ground and see how easily you glide, on land air's irrelevant the ground is what you propel from and stop on.

Water closes back in behind you, that's a push. Watch Penguins and fish in water, some vigorous motions to get moving then enjoy the glide.
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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:06 pm

SA
I too thought Adams was just a good TI style .Having myself had TI lessons and just seeing videos of him.
His stroke has much more rotation , the leading arm stays out front even longer , the one flick kick is only used to speed up hip rotation and the stroke only takes place when the body is fully rotated.
He has a five step process to teach this which starts at basic body and head control before putting in the switch which is the position he usually poses for in photos.
He doesn't do DVD s etc so the only way of learning his stroke is direct lesson / camp with him. He's a great guy and gets in right beside you in the water.
Like anything you want to learn it's the commitment you put in afterwards that delivers the result. I have a friend that attended one of his clinics and enjoyed. But the other day they said they haven't got faster . After the clinic they did the drills twice for 30 mins and since they have just swim thinking about the stroke. Inevitably they are still swimming much like they always have.
I'm the opposite I get obsessed and will do 200 m of each drill with 100 m swim before the next drill once a week. Then using swimsmooth training plan for my other swims try to hold the stroke.
I need another session with Adam once I really get the drills perfect. Currently I'm prob 70 % there I still pull too soon before I'm fully streamlined out of habit.
I went slower at first I had a CSS stuck 2m06/7s it went out to 2m20s but is now quicker at 2m 02s and feels better.
woody

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by SA on Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:01 pm

when you compare his flat and his long style you see his long style has far more force on the pushphase.
HIs flatstroke doesnt have any arm acceleration.
He falls back and then surges forward on the push phase. This is so strong that he can delay his next stroke until his speeds starts to drop to just below avarage again.
A lot is about personal preference here. Do you like a strong endshot and being a lttle longer streamlined but more speed variation betweens strokes, or do you like a more evenspeed with featherlike movement of the arms?
His shoulder rotation is far from flat even in his flat stroke,

Best to see it at 0.25 speed and focus on his  head movement relative to the poolwalls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eondt7gMfo4

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:18 pm

When he uses the term flat I think he means the pull is starting at the point the body is flat which means the pull is also used to rotate the body. He never swims this way it's only to demonstrate his old style which contributed to his shoulder injuries.
In the endless pool because the speed is identical he will have to vary amount of force used to stay still. Something I struggled with I was always hitting the motor unit or having to put a pause in to stop me hitting it.It is not a natural environment to swim in but I'd still love to have one !
Edit just seen this on facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/outdoorswimmingsociety/permalink/10154366083697830/


Last edited by woody on Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by cottmiler on Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:36 am

woody, I have tried to look at the AW facebook link but I don,t know what you are referring to?

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Re: Why does swimming feel so awkward?

Post by Guest on Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:33 am

It was on the group Outdoor Swimming Society perhaps link only works if you are a member of the group. Adam is and often posts news there .

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