On (flutter) kicking

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Re: On (flutter) kicking

Post by Don Wright on Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:30 pm

I don't know that I succeeded in explaining what I was trying to do with my "lower body propulsion" idea, described a couple of posts ago.  I think (absorbed by my interest in fly stroke!) I try as each arm enters the water when doing that freestyle "variant", to initiate by my vigorous body roll towards the entering arm going down to an EVF catch, a quick undulation or wave generation, by pressing first the upper part of the torso vaguely in the direction at right angles to the now stroking arm, and then  as the body rolls, the wave direction varies from by core movement, until the stroking arm is beneath the shoulders, twixt pull and push, and the wave impulse finishes. The torso is then flat before rolling the other way to facilitate inhalation on that side. This hopefully(!) results in the relaxed legs/feet "doing whatever" without protruding over-much into the layers of water surrounding the body. All in an attempt to make the action of the body more fish-like!


Last edited by Don Wright on Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: On (flutter) kicking

Post by Don Wright on Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:42 pm

(inadvertent duplication of earlier post!

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Re: On (flutter) kicking

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:55 pm

Don Wright wrote:I don't know that I succeeded in explaining what I was trying to do with my "lower body propulsion" idea, described a couple of posts ago.  I think (absorbed by my interest in fly stroke!) I try as each arm enters the water when doing that freestyle "variant", to initiate by my vigorous body roll towards the entering arm going down to an EVF catch, a quick undulation or wave generation, by pressing first the upper part of the torso vaguely in the direction at right angles to the now stroking arm, and then  as the body rolls, the wave direction varies from by core movement, until the stroking arm is beneath the shoulders, twixt pull and push, and the wave impulse finishes. The torso is then flat before rolling the other way to facilitate inhalation on that side. This hopefully(!) results in the relaxed legs/feet "doing whatever" without protruding over-much into the layers of water surrounding the body. All in an attempt to make the action of the body more fish-like!

Woow interesting! Have you ever taken videos while doing this, can you share?

I also think that being ridgit as one unit is a key to faster swimming.

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Re: On (flutter) kicking

Post by SA on Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:20 pm

I am against being rigid like a solid unit.
Its better than being like spaghetti, or being uncontrolled, but even better is adding some bending twisting and undulation. Not much, but just enough to take over some muscle action of the extremeties of the body.
Just like the hip twitch where Cotmmiler talks about. Its a small movement, but has a definetive change on your stroke.
I was skating tonight and there is something the same in skating. You can push a little weight on the hip a fraction for the push with the leg. Its a very small movement, but sets up a sort of chain that helps to keep you going.
But being straight and totally supported by the water is a very good starting point though, to add a little extra until the supported feeling starts to get overwhelmed by propulsive actions. Back off untill the supported body is there again etc.
imagine the cheetah being rigid like a solid unit. The poor animal would be severly handicapped.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8vejjVgIHg
Its better to use all the muscles surrounding the spine to do some usefull work.

Makes swimming even more difficult for us  if we also have to control those muscles, but thats the way most elites swim.

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Re: On (flutter) kicking

Post by Don Wright on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:46 am

Re : Lower Body Propulsion!

nightcrawler wrote:Woow interesting! Have you ever taken videos while doing this, can you share?
I also think that being ridgit as one unit is a key to faster swimming.

Think my DWfitnessclub manager would have a "hissy fit" or apoplexy at even the thought of videoing anyone in the single lane, while there were other swimmers nearby in the un-roped area, and likely quite a few "ogling" from the two jacuzzis. Other problems would be - who do I know amongst the casual swim lot that would operate the camera? After 4 years of membership,  I still only know one occasional fellow-swimmer by name - whereas the gym chaps attending regular "classes" see each other a lot there, and are hence more friendly towards each other.  My wife, on rare occasions does about 10 lengths of fast freestyle in the same pool as me after doing her "Spin" class - (I can't understand why she sticks only to that class, 'cos she cycles everywhere anyway) - but moans that the water is too cold for her, and does most of her swimming at another warmer pool.  (She has double vision problems when not wearing her "prismatic" specs, so likes to be across the un-roped area close to the other wall, to reduce chances of bumping into someone - 'cos she is not sure which of her 2 images to take account of!  Shocked ).  Although I would very much like to see what my legs are actually doing, when swimming that particular  freestyle variant of letting the relaxed legs "do whatever", I don't think a surface camera view would be very enlightening - so would have to think about a camera on a "stick" to catch the UW action.  It's all too complicated - so sorry, won't be providing a video!


On your second point of "keeping the torso rigid for fast swimming" - that ties up with Maglischo's advice in his great but now rather "dated" tome!

However, I liked "SA"'s comment about the torso in his post : -

SA wrote:I am against being rigid like a solid unit.
Its better than being like spaghetti, or being uncontrolled, but even better is adding some bending twisting and undulation. Not much, but just enough to take over some muscle action of the extremeties of the body.{IMO As it swims, a fishes body does not have any fixed areas - it's all one continually varying taut muscular action presenting different parts of it's body at different angles  at different times.}
Just like the hip twitch where Cotmmiler talks about. Its a small movement, but has a definetive change on your stroke...

Interested also in "SA"'s reference to "cottmiler"'s "hip twitch" - think he first mentioned that on the SS forum - but must investigate what he means by it! Originally I thought it was like my "quick hip flick" downwards" as each arm enters the water  - but seem to remember it had little to do with that idea.  Perhaps if "cott..." reads this, he will "put me straight"!

Bye / Don
I


Last edited by Don Wright on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: On (flutter) kicking

Post by Don Wright on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:51 am

Don Wright wrote:
SA wrote:FWIW  my crap kicking feels best if I imagine that my legs stop at the knees, so you are driving only the upper legs up and down and let the rest flap along like fins or like a

I liked "SA"'s comment about : -

"...kicking feels best if I imagine that my legs stop at the knees, so you are driving only the upper legs up and down and let the rest flap along like fins or like a flag on a moved stick..."

 This is precisely what it feels like when recently I re-suscitated an old technique I found out a couple of years ago, but left to languish while concentrating on other things!  In this I concentrate on wavering just the thighs rapidly up/down through a small angle - such that the knee at it's lowest point is probably some 10" below the surface/torso line - before returning the thigh back to the torso line - all the while, leaving the lower legs/feet completely relaxed.  This results in a gratifying steady movement forwards, far exceeding the miserable progress I get if using a conventional style.


In general not a happy swim yesterday - too much arthritic tightness in shoulder joints when freestyling.

 Had another "go" at that "rapid/shallow thigh to/fro movement" when on the side and arms at the side, looking up ceiling-wards to get continuous access to air.  Quite disappointed - I very quickly tired and couldn't manage more than about 15m - which is much worse than my efforts last year trying this business.  Perhaps it was just an "off" day!

 The only thing I enjoyed, was a better more relaxed but effective (for me anyway!) body dolphin on the side (with one arm outstretched and other by the side) action - at least that didn't wear out the old shoulder joints .

I did have a "rotator cuff" injury several months ago - but "swam past" that problem - helped by remembering to keep a varying degree of elbow bend during the freestyle pull/push - it takes the strain off of what might otherwise be a long "lever".

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Re: On (flutter) kicking

Post by Sprinter on Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:30 pm

Coming back to fast propulsive flutter kicking, my most recent experience are discussed a bit in
http://theswimforum.palstani.com/t135-forearm-paddles#1904

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Re: On (flutter) kicking

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