A Total Immersion clinic

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A Total Immersion clinic

Post by cottmiler on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:57 am

I found this and it was interesting if you can stand the jarring music.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=shOM8BunXCM

My perception is that the clinic improved body balance a lot.

It tamed the kicking action.

It improved hand entry.

However, I think it resulted in more glide.

If she could catch the water earlier as she exits with the other hand then I think she will have really benefited.

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No libelous comments please.


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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:54 pm

Sorry but someone should say the truth that "The King is naked, just like the Emperor's New Clothes Story!" Very Happy
I have to say that this is not a clinic, TI coach Suzanne Atkinson swimming from beginning to the end of the video, just another big TI hoax or whatever you call politely!
Am I stupid that I have been trying to improve just 1 sec per 50m for 3 years training day and night thousands of kilometers? If there was such a magic that can improve our pace 8 seconds per 50 yards in a couple of days (like in this video), be sure that I would sell my house and car and pay to get that magic. Very Happy

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:31 pm

Interesting, to call the very gentle kick "furious kicking".

In what sense is what you see an "improvement"?

- Day 1 seems in a different pool -- no, it seems they are swimming the short direction day 2, and perhaps back to the original direction day 3;
- where the speed on days 1,3 seems similar.
Seems less purposeful to me at the end (perhaps day 1 had a very light pull on purpose, so that at the end the speed is the same?).

Looks sad to me, the "improvement". Strange ideology, whose main purpose seems to be to kill the kicking?

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:45 pm

Indeed very strange, to use the coach, which likely only swims 2-beat, like here (from 2012)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmUNdDhIIsM
in a kind of 6-beat kick on the first session ...

Aha, that might be the solution: Cottmiller's video is from 2010, so it might be that she transitioned to that style.

As often, comments and background information are missing (for nearly all videos out there).

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:43 pm

Isn't at the bottom of TI the fear of Huffing and Puffing?
Instead of saying YES to huffing and puffing, and thus training harder and harder (within your range), to invite it, one says NO to it, and bans it from swimming.

It's a possibility, of course, to build a system around that idea (fear). But one should say this very clearly.

I believe if you are not seriously ill, there is no reason to fear huffing and puffing. You just have to get used to it, to accept it as normal. Perhaps especially for swimming this is an issue, since there are the swimming-fears around breathing (which you don't have for land-based sports).

There are also other aspects actively negated by TI, as muscle soreness/failure, and failure in general (by not looking at the numbers!). The numbers (times) in swimming are a basic reality check, and one has to embrace them ("yes, that looser is indeed me! let's see ...").

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:55 pm

Further thoughts (philosophical, as you like; formulated in a simplified, extreme form -- that's more fun Twisted Evil ):

It seems TI is a major negative force in swimming. Outside of TI I haven't heard a coach saying something positive about it (on the contrary).

HOWEVER, that negative force could only arise due to a big weakness of swimming as it was. Namely the question is: Who talked to the adult learner?!?

Definitely not the clubs (they give a s... on them, with their fetishism of youth). And in such an environment it is perhaps not unlikely, perhaps even necessary, that a monster like TI is born.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by cottmiler on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:48 pm

Where is the Moderator please?

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:04 pm

Sprinter wrote:Interesting, to call the very gentle kick "furious kicking".

In what sense is what you see an "improvement"?

- Day 1 seems in a different pool -- no, it seems they are swimming the short direction day 2, and perhaps back to the original direction day 3;
- where the speed on days 1,3 seems similar.
Seems less purposeful to me at the end (perhaps day 1 had a very light pull on purpose, so that at the end the speed is the same?).

Looks sad to me, the "improvement". Strange ideology, whose main purpose seems to be to kill the kicking?

Sorry master sprinter, i was mistaken, i would have written de-improvement, 3rd day is 4 secs slower than the 1st day.  Very Happy

Also I agree that she lost rhythm and power, instead of pulling she is pausing her extended arm much and loosing the water she had already caught.

Not this time Cotty, moderators wont help you Very Happy

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:09 pm

In my experience, for the adult learner there are three main categories:

1. Very insecure, and typically no backgrounds in sports; likely also fear of the water, and typically 40 years old at least.
A method which seems reasonable here is the "Shaw method"
https://www.artofswimming.com/
Perhaps their web page might still engage in overselling, but when you talk to them, they are pretty direct, and don't sell their method as a general method for "better swimming", but as a dedicated method for "troubled adults" (my words).

2. Feels basically comfortable in the water, likes swimming, but doesn't like (or even fears) "huffing and puffing", i.e., wants something "gentle". I think that should be the target of TI, and that should be concretely stated. The coaches which whom I discussed TI, I believe would fully agree, and for example regarding the "Ocean walker" a well-known German coach explicitly stated this to me: for example all that over-rotation makes sense for those who do not want to swim fast, but want to get air easily. He wouldn't have any problem with such a sharing of work: his focus group is people like me who accept and finally even ask for PAIN, and that's a very different group than people who feel attracted by the direction of an "ocean walker". The world is big, but the problem here is that TI and those groups always make big claims for "better swimming", and that is simply false, and must be fought (for the purpose of public health at least).

3. Wants to treat swimming as a sport, likes exertion, seeks it. For those people the whole TI-direction is a trap, and will lead to years of at least wasting time, and perhaps not unlikely to bad health consequences.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by cottmiler on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:32 pm

Any comments on SwimSmooth?

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:28 pm

cottmiler wrote:Any comments on SwimSmooth?
I personally started my "serious swimming" in 2012 with SwimSmooth, so for some time they were quite important to me. Clearly their main target is that Group 3 in my listing.

My understanding is, that they started strong, a fresh welcome idea with the swim types, however then they did not continuously develop the system, but instead they froze it, and then it lost its truth (on the one hand it lost its novelty, and furthermore swimmers reacted to the system).

Also in my experience first the coaches came from a swimming background, and that helped a lot. Later coaches knew only SwimSmooth, and they were either too narrow (still alright), or outright overzealous (believed in the ideas of SwimSmooth as absolute truths). The (stupid) "guru" then killed it for me.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:35 pm

Good night Sprinter,

You may also add yoga, qi energy training and TI style running to the 2nd item. The number of women attending  to these activities is to a large extend, because yoga and qi sounds exotic and also easy in comparison to swimming, and running helps to loose weights faster than swimming. On theinternet you can find lots of TI style running sessions.

https://youtu.be/w3yD6IuSFuY

Indeed in Turkey TI coach is arranging yoga and running sessions at the weekends in the forsests. Generally men over 45 looking for women over 35 are joining in these picnics Very Happy

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:44 pm

Same woman Suzanne Atkinson in Cottmiler's video, she is not a student, a coach with hardly 1:45 pace Very Happy
https://youtu.be/19518wkIgpI

Cottmiler is already swimming faster and better than these, i cant understand why he is watching them still, it can be an obsession, TI knows how to do marketing Very Happy

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by SA on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:12 am

Time for some TI bashing again?
I post quite some stuff there and they still havent kicked me from the forum, so respect for their tolerance.
They have a very  firm belief in what is a good stroke and what a bad one.
I can see where they want to go (Shinji), but it seems the recipe isnt optimal for everyone.


This one is also interesting. The comments are complete nonsense/rather TI tainted depending on your point of view, except for the stroke count.

The guy had a relative nice rhythmic stroke, and was much faster before the TI treatment, but had some of the typical beginners flaws. Do we think its an improvement?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPLhtxPziDA

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:39 am

SA wrote:
I post quite some stuff there and they still havent kicked me from the forum, so respect for their tolerance.
This doesn't look like a strong argument to me? ("The mafia hasn't killed me yet -- mafia for president!")

SA wrote:
They have a very  firm belief in what is a good stroke and what a bad one.
The firmer the belief, the weaker the real foundation.
The didn't need to believe, if they had some facts on their side.

SA wrote:
I can see where they want to go (Shinji), but it seems the recipe isnt optimal for everyone.
There is nothing to go (on the side of speed! they can do as much entertainment as they wish)

SA wrote:
This one is also interesting. The comments are complete nonsense/rather TI tainted depending on your point of view, except for the stroke count.

The guy had a pretty nice rhythmic stroke, and was much faster before the TI treatment, but had some of the typical beginners flaws. Do we think its an improvement?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPLhtxPziDA
If they would argue, that this is just the BEGINNING of the transition, and that first you have to become slower, and only after a good effort finally you become faster than before, than, abstractly(!), that could be accepted. But if they really mean that, "before - after" in the direct sense, you *immediately* see the improvement, then this is just madness. He should get a lawyer, and ask for a million as compensation!

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:48 am

nightcrawler wrote:
https://youtu.be/w3yD6IuSFuY
Clearly this is some form of entertainment, and improving swimming is more of a pretext.

So well, fine with me ... I would find that boring, but let them do that.
What is really  hm, interesting/strange, that apparently(?) they need the pretext of swimming faster (while it seems in reality nobody is really interested in that --- except of in a magical way).

nightcrawler wrote:
Indeed in Turkey TI coach is arranging yoga and running sessions at the weekends in the forests. Generally men over 45 looking for women over 35 are joining in these picnics Very Happy
So well, that's at least a concrete motivation I can understand (in principle Wink ).

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:04 am

SA wrote:This one is also interesting. The comments are complete nonsense/rather TI tainted depending on your point of view, except for the stroke count.

The guy had a relative nice rhythmic stroke, and was much faster before the TI treatment, but had some of the typical beginners flaws. Do we think its an improvement?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPLhtxPziDA

As far as I can see, originally there is enough body roll (too much when breathing), later than there is over-rotation.
"Cross-over" correct.
"Fish-tailing": yes, correct -- but they DO NOT ATTACK the problem at all, but just eliminate the kicking (in the end, while here, the "after", is ridiculous).
"Hurried hand-driven recovery, impatient lead hand": seems not much relevant to me (they have their magic ideas about that "lead hand").

Very funny, their early hand-entry. "Patient lead hand" -- ha ha! On the contrary, the hand should drive into the water with really good speed (and this is indeed a good feeling!).

They CAN'T be serious about the stroke count! As I said, if they take that as the starting point of something, so well, but the "after" swimming in itself is not swimming, but just some form of drill.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by SA on Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:02 am

Sprinter, I think its best for you to think about your bad TI experiences when you do your hardest sprinting sets.
Seems you get all fired up from TI ! ha ha

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:38 am

SA wrote:Sprinter, I think its best for you to think about your bad TI experiences when you do your hardest sprinting sets.

Doesn't work: Definitely I had very good sets fired up by aggression; for example two young guys in a 25m lane in Vienna, who thought it would be more fun (for them) to swim side by side, and not stopping this when asked -- I attacked them with my highest stroke rate possible (they gave in), and that adrenalin thrust pushed me through a whole hour of great fast swimming. Knowing this, in a 25m "sports" pool in London, where they claimed to have the "policy" of not allowing snorkels, I allowed to build up some aggression, and also had a good session.

But that TI is just the usual background noise/madness. It belongs to the many wrong things in our world, it's systemic, and so, if indeed you would let it in (so to speak), it would create only depression.

But you see soooo much bad swimming in the pool anyway, it doesn't matter.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by cottmiler on Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:36 am

I do like what sprinter said above:

"The firmer the belief, the weaker the real foundation.
They didn't need to believe, if they had some facts on their side."

It is frustrating for any science based person to accept the sheer inability of man to optimise people in the way we can do with inanimate objects.

But maybe it is man's incalcitrance and incompetence that enables us to advance scientifically.  It is easier to develop a solution if you have a problem, not the other way around.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by s.sciame on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:36 pm

Sprinter wrote:

two young guys in a 25m lane in Vienna, who thought it would be more fun (for them) to swim side by side, and not stopping this when asked -- I attacked them with my highest stroke rate possible (they gave in), and that adrenalin thrust pushed me through a whole hour of great fast swimming.


I recall pretty well to have once read somewhere on TI forum that another merit of leaving one (patient) arm always in front is to use it as a shield against collisions.

Salvo

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:17 am

According to my observations, expecting shield against collisions from arms is not a solution for faster swimming. The reality is not in the direction what TI claims, that is why we cannot see any TI swimmer in the championships. Where as in order to swim effecient and faster arms and also legs should move continuously and also in harmony in order to keep the momentum. To find the proper rhythm head up(water polo) and ankle band drills are helpfull.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:51 am

cottmiler wrote:
It is frustrating for any science based person to accept the sheer inability of man to optimise people in the way we can do with inanimate objects.

On the theoretical side, fluid dynamics is highly complicated.

And then there isn't much money in swimming! (Partially I think that should be overcome.)

Very natural would be a robotic challenge: a standard robot simulating a human in the water is developed, programmable, and then there are competitions (for the different programs) -- at the beginning it would all be very rough, but could become very interesting.

cottmiler wrote:
But maybe it is man's incalcitrance and incompetence that enables us to advance scientifically.  It is easier to develop a solution if you have a problem, not the other way around.

We will never run out of problems (every problem solved creates ten more problems). A certain dose of naivety can help with finding solutions (possibly also finding theories), but that needs to be embedded into a solid background -- and a lot of (strong) discussion.

In swimming you have nearly no discussions.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by GuitarChick on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:19 am

nightcrawler wrote:Same woman Suzanne Atkinson in Cottmiler's video, she is not a student, a coach with hardly 1:45 pace Very Happy
https://youtu.be/19518wkIgpI

Cottmiler is already swimming faster and better than these, i cant understand why he is watching them still, it can be an obsession, TI knows how to do marketing Very Happy

Here is a more recent video as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtSZi9lHHc&t=135s

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by cottmiler on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:28 am

It looks very nice to me. No splash, good body position, continuous smooth stroke. Straight legs.

20 sec per length although maybe the imperial markings suggest it's 25 yards. 22.86 m.

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