A Total Immersion clinic

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Huffng and puffing

Post by two beat kick on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:16 am

Sprinter wrote:Isn't at the bottom of TI the fear of Huffing and Puffing?
Instead of saying YES to huffing and puffing, and thus training harder and harder (within your range), to invite it, one says NO to it, and bans it from swimming.

It's a possibility, of course, to build a system around that idea (fear). But one should say this very clearly.

I believe if you are not seriously ill, there is no reason to fear huffing and puffing. You just have to get used to it, to accept it as normal. Perhaps especially for swimming this is an issue, since there are the swimming-fears around breathing (which you don't have for land-based sports).

There are also other aspects actively negated by TI, as muscle soreness/failure, and failure in general (by not looking at the numbers!). The numbers (times) in swimming are a basic reality check, and one has to embrace them ("yes, that looser is indeed me! let's see ...").

Breathing should be relative to effort in any sport including swimming.  When focussing on technique to develop better technically as a swmmer, you should be working at a rate that allows you to focus on what you are doing.  Far too many wimmers breathe as if they are sprinting when they are cruising and get out of breath as a result.   (Effectively hyperventialting).  Then they get used to it and think that's normal.  You should not be trying to empty your lungs or over breathe when swimming at an easy pace any more than when you are cycling or running at an easy pace.

Of course when swimming harder or sprinting you may want to breathe harder.  Your brain should mke a good job of the level of breathing needed relative to effort used without you trying to override it, same as in any other sport.

TI focusses intially on your technique and it's proven that to learn new stuff and build new neural pathways, an easy relaxed pace is the fastest way the brain achieves this.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:31 am

two beat kick wrote:

Breathing should be relative to effort in any sport including swimming.
"Relative" is rather meaningless here. The basic issue, of the hostility of TI against athleticism, is completely avoided. And only at the end of the process stands a mastery also of breathing, while before, in every sport, it is "huffing and puffing". Likely the issue is that TI does not consider swimming as a sport, but more of some meditation issue. This is possible, but then it should be said, clearly.

two beat kick wrote:
 When focussing on technique to develop better technically as a swimmer, you should be working at a rate that allows you to focus on what you are doing.
Again, this is rather meaningless. "Technique" has already been cleansed from "speed". And "doing" doesn't include "speed". TI only focus on slow swimming, and that is what is developed.

two beat kick wrote:
 Far too many swimmers breathe as if they are sprinting when they are cruising and get out of breath as a result.
I guess when you use "sprinting", there is the same misunderstanding at place as when in the video discussed before light kicking was described as "frantic". The whole mindset is against effort, while in fact effort is always GOOD. Will a TI adept ever develop a swimmer's body -- of course not.

two beat kick wrote:
  (Effectively hyperventilating).  Then they get used to it and think that's normal.
If they think it's normal, what then is the problem?? Swimming is not a beauty contest (but TI tries to pervert it in this direction -- "no splashing"!).

two beat kick wrote:
 You should not be trying to empty your lungs or over breathe when swimming at an easy pace any more than when you are cycling or running at an easy pace.
Who was actually speaking about this topic in this thread?

And who wants to swim an "easy pace"?? This I think is a fundamental question: TI only considers people who want to swim at an "easy pace" (and makes a fetish out of it).

two beat kick wrote:
Of course when swimming harder or sprinting you may want to breathe harder.
"may" ?

The developing athlete will always breathe too hard, work too hard -- that's the nature of it.

two beat kick wrote:
 Your brain should make a good job of the level of breathing needed relative to effort used without you trying to override it, same as in any other sport.
Most other sports do not have the aspect of increasing the lung volumes through swimming and breathing hard.

two beat kick wrote:
TI focusses initially on your technique and it's proven that to learn new stuff and build new neural pathways, an easy relaxed pace is the fastest way the brain achieves this.
In this area nothing has every been proven (among other issues, we are speaking here about adult late starters).

Funny to say that "TI initially focusses" -- so then there are the TI camps with hard interval training etc. ? Never heard of them.

That TI doesn't work, when it comes to speed, that one can consider "proven".

An "easy relaxed pace" means for a beginner a far too slow speed. And anyway, it should only be used rarely, for really new stuff -- but otherwise we must train under the circumstances which are relevant for what we achieve, and the technique for fast swimming is fundamentally different to the technique of slow swimming.

I consider TI as a destructive cult. Out of jealousy, achievement and a natural relation to the sport is attacked by it.

Typical the "no splashing" attitude (while a good splash is fun and natural, and a very important sign of relaxation). The problem is that TI tries to create the image, that by magical powers suddenly fast swimming could be achieved (so magical rituals, like the "magical hand entry", are indeed of prime importance to it). If it would honestly say, that it focusses on non-athletic swimming, kind of meditation (the sun, the ocean, the wind, ...), the world would be a better place.

Another fundamental mistake is the destructive attitude towards the kicking -- only a crippled kick is allowed. A two-beat kick for swimming makes only sense with a very high stroke rate (and it would be new to me if TI suddenly had discovered that). Especially important here, that the TI pupils are typically NOT competitive swimmers, who may make all sort of calculations, but people who hope also to get a good health benefit from swimming -- and here a good 6-beat kick is of prime importance, the older you get.

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Huffing and puffing

Post by two beat kick on Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:25 am

There is no 'hosiltiity' to ahleticism with TI. TI does not only focus on slow swimming.  The Effortless Endurance workshops are techique and not fitness focussed and to unlearn and learn new things and build new neural pathways it is easier for the brain to learn this stuff at slow tempos.  This is scientifically proven.  Read "Mastery" by George Leonard, "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle or speak to any neurologist.   Building new neural pathways is best achieved at slow tempos whether swimming, playing a musical instrument, learning a new move in a martial art or hitting a golf ball.

It is incorrect to state thet TI only focusses on slow swimming,  I am a level 3 TI Coach.  We focus on learning new skills at tempos that are easier for the brain to cope with just as musicians learn a new pience of music in smaller chunks at slow tempos before attempting the whiole piece in full at the tempo the composer intended.  Tecnhnique has to be solid before introducing speed.

I think it would be fair to say that Total immersion is orintated at longer distances (400m plus) but that s not to say that a lot of the core philosophy of balance, streamlining and core stability would not also be hepful to sprinters.

TI also run speed workshops which are absoutely all about increasing cadence and speed.  Check them out or have some speed focussed one to one sessions with your local TI Coach.

It is nigh on impossible to improve technique at race tempos.  Look at the work Bowman does with Phekps and Ledecky - he dos not work at race tempos with these swimmers when focussing on technique

Interval training has nothing to do with developing good technique.  It's just about fitness.  Fitness is obviously important but in all sports good technique comes first.    Of course Interval based sessions and fitness training is fundametal to any endurance orientated sport, however we do not believe these kind of sessions are the best environment in which to effect change in technique, espcially as bad habits can bcome deeply imrpinted if left unchecked over a prefiod of time.

As for the 2 beat kick it is simply not a "crippled kick" as you describe it. Sun Yang and Katie Ledecky, Lotte Friis and many others employ a 2 beat kick to great effect and we TI also advocate 6 beat kicking but to emphasise the 1st and 4th kicks in the cycle in sync with the stroke and weight shift to create a better "Coupling Effect" as used by the likes of Phelps and Lochte.  It's simply not true to state the 2 beat kick can only be used at super high tempos.  It works really well at slow tempos too. Janet Evans was the greatest distance swimmer in the world for 18 yars plus and she used a two beat kick.  Katie Ledecky (the greatest swimmer of all time now) also uses a two beat kick variant (2 beat/4 beat) for the majority of her races. The 2 beat kick is a great asset for distance swimming and a great skill to learn even if you don't want to use it all the time.  For some people it is difficult to learn, which is another good reason for learning it and developing good proprioception and an even better 6 beat kick.

Come to one of my "Smart Speed" workshops or one of my club sesssions and you will understand better the TI aproach to attaining greater speed.

In your training are you achieving the speed increases you seek through interval training?  What is your current per 100m pace over 400/800/1500?  Do you think that simply training harder is going to continue to make you faster?  We take a scientific and mathemetical apraoch to increasing speed, but first we look at technique to see how it might be changed to facilitate greater speed at higher tempos.


Last edited by two beat kick on Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:16 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling errors and better structure and a nights sleep!)

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:34 am

Oh dear, how much bucks?

You know it all, also very good marketing techniques with missionary calmness;  I m Hyped  Shocked Very Happy

I will come to your Smart Speed clinics with 10 of my students, but first let us send your 400m TI swimming clip with a basic pace of 1:15 (a 400m on 5 minutes - even 12 year old pre-adolescent girls can swim this).

-------------------------------------------------------------

Actually silence is not always gold, I have to say that :

- In the 5K or 8K long distance events TI swimmers are coming 1 hour-1.5 hours recpectively behind me, because TI technique focuses on economy(they assume that) in swimming, but noone is in search of economy, in 10 seconds we need to reach 200 BPM HR and again drop back to 120 BRPM HR within 20 seconds. Every performance requires power and spends fuel for this, a ferrari car cant/shouldnt be as economic as Vw Golf. Swimming means TIME, footbal means GOAL.

- The above swimmers' techniques that you have given as example have nothing related with TI. You are repeating the aspect "2 beat kick" Sun Yang does 1-3=4 beat kick, Katie Ledecky does 6bk, Phelps does 6-8 beat kick. Once Terry had given me an example of Alexander Popov technique as TI, I had just said goodbye to him Very Happy

- On the other hand TI technique is not an universal (and/or approved technique, ask FINA Very Happy ), has extra pauses and glides. Show me a world class swimmers as TI guy (please dont give examples like Ledecky, Popov, Evans, etc - even a guy on the street not related with swimming can understand that they are not swimming TI technique).

- Shinji has realized and is trying to get rid TI by pruning his over-gliding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSDh7fAsMhc

- Terry has stupid back end push(which results in a pause) but he was unable to get rid of it. He has no front traction, so he has to squeeze as much out of the back as possible. He teaches himself not to push all the way to the end  "old fashined technique" as he says.
https://youtu.be/3nQgr-_yYQ4

Anyway as a reslult, none of them can hold an easy pace like 1:20 pace in any long distance event.  


Marketing is good for trade but we are talking about swimming, in the TI forum there can be more customers for you.

Hope one day you may reach the truth by doing yoga and mediatation workouts.  Very Happy

Good luck.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by two beat kick on Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:56 am

It's a shame you are so cynical.

I am merely trying to clarify a few misconceptions you have about TI. We do not advocate over gliding or even gliding.  We are mainly interested in remaining as streamlined as possible in between the impulses of the strokes for maximum efficiency.  

The Shinji video is often taken out of context and for sure swimmers with very short strokes we often encourage to swim drills like this much as many coaches advocate "catch up" drills.  That does not mean it is how TI coaches swim or want their swimmers to swim at the end of the process any more than any other coach wants his/her swmmers to swim "catch up" all the time.
The videos you highlight are demonstration videos, not swimming in competition videos.  TI breaks swimming down into its constituent parts and then helps swimmers make adjustments that help them get faster and swim further.  As I said we focus initially on helping swimmers make their technique as efficient as possible before letting them explore higher tempos and greater speed.

In this clip you can clearly see Ledecky switching between a 2 beat and 4 beat kick apart from the final 100 where she goes all in.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGXNs0MXzI
Sun Yang adopts a similar approach with a little minor flutter in  between the predominant kicks wich you cold call 4 beat or just a bit of a 'fill in' to the 2 beat.  Essentially the timing is to use the predominant kicks with the weight shift which we tap into with the 2 beat kick.  

I would certainly never point to swimmers like Phelps or Ledecky or Adrian (Adrian has a big catchup many would call a overglide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SONx52cyltI) and say they were TI swimmers.  It's the other way round: I (and probably most TI coaches who I cannot speak for) look at these great swmmers and think "what can I learn from them?"

You clearly have some issues with TI and I'm not going to convince you nor is it my intention so to do, but I hope that for the benefit of other readers of this thread that I have managed to add some context and balance.  TI is not for everbody, the approach is rather cerebral and that may not suit some people.  

Take it easy.


Last edited by two beat kick on Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:41 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : felt I could make the point more succinct. Splling errors)

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by SA on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:04 pm

NIghtcrawler can be pretty direct. Dont get overwhelmed by it. Very Happy
I am a bit in the middle between TI and Sprinter. Learning new details is also difficult for me while trying to keep up with a faster swimmer while being tired. Some things can be learned better repeating it slow, but that part doesnt need so much time. I have played musical imstruments ( on a low level) and to get the basic movements and timing you have to repeat in slow motion for a while to wire it in, but then its best to put the wiring under stress rather quickly by increasing the tempo and powerlevel.
Best to really wire it in is to add pressure or speed variations on your basic nondynamical robotic replay.

TI coaches can say all things about what they mean and what TI tries to teach, but we are looking at the results and very often we dont like the results.
Nowhere can we find a fast regognizable as TI swimmer, or TI is not able to communicate properly what they actually strive for when swimming faster than 1.30 min/100m as an adult learner. (except for Shinji, which we all admire in some sense)

this is advertised as fast swimming
fast TI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1KpWB0stuQ&index=9&list=PL4ABFA88CE24E1818
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ewmINl4o8

Look at the underwater footage of the first swimmer. It looks horrible in my eyes. Way to much motionless extension for such a strokerate. Totally exhaustive style.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by two beat kick on Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:43 pm

Thanks for this - I am merely trying to put right a few misconceptions about TI.  Certainly not intending to provoke hostility.  

Good swimming is simply good swimming in my view.  it's a misunderstanding of TI t think we should be able t point to TI swimmers as if the swim diffrently in some way. That is certainly not what I am trying to achieve. of course it's a process. Take a wimmer at a moment in isolation is his or her journey and say 'look there's an overgliding TI swimmer again" is to judge as unfairly as to look at a squad doing their "catch up" drills.

TI have one approach to achieving this, nobody said it was the only approach.



There are a diverse range of different styles in swimming but I certainly believe that the more efficient longer stroke that you see Ledecky and Sun Yang and even Phelps using is a better approach for most people rather than the shorter choppier stroke.   But if you want to swim with a short choppy stroke you possibly would not be going to see a TI coach.   That’s cool too.

The longer stroke style of swimming requires really good balance in the water and this can be difficult to get the hang of but the benefits are huge because all effort used is in forward propulsion. Some people can't swim slow tempos witout their legs sinking, that does expose an inherent lack of balance IMHO. Good balance will be a benefit at any speed. It will make you fster and able to swim further with less effort also.

As for "fast" well that's relative isn't it.  Relative to distance, age, genes. Maximise potential of any swimmer is the goal of all coaches I would say, TI or non TI.   Many of my clients are looking simply to be able to swim further with less effort.  I also have many clients who are now swimming 10 seconds per 100 faster with a longer stroke than they were when they first came to see me. Mainly triathletes, not Olympic gold medal swimmers I grant you but for many people people 1'32/100 is pretty good swimming.

The musical analogy is one I  use often.  Exactly the same process for building new neural pathways and learning new things TI coaches prescribe..

As for the videos you posted links to ... well that exposes some of the weaknesses of the TI brand and possibly the cause of may misconceptions about TI.  People take it upon themselves to make these videos, not sanctioned by TI Central.  Total Immersion is not a well regulated brand in that respect.  That is a shame.

TI has grown and evolved over the years due to the core strength of the product and not because of marketing acumen.  

If TI coaches did such a bad job I don't think it would have survived this long.  For many many people it is transformational.   Certainly try it before dismissing it.  You may find there is something in it for you that you might want to take away and adopt or you may just reaffirm your dislike of the approach.


But please look beyond the quirky videos you may see on YouTube to understand the approach better.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:09 pm

two beat kick wrote:
I would certainly never point to swimmers like Phelps or Ledecky or Adrian (Adrian has a big catchup many would call a overglide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SONx52cyltI) and say they were TI swimmers.  It's the other way round: I (and probably most TI coaches who I cannot speak for) look at these great swimmers and think "what can I learn from them?"

Alright, let's learn from them.

What have they all in common, together with Yang, and likely every other great swimmer?

Their basis is a strong, fast and powerful flutter kick. For Ledecky for example it is well-documented, that her success relies very heavily on the strong kick. For Adrian and Phelps, no question. Also Yang is very fast even over 50m.

They went through many many hours of hard and very fast kicking sets. Then, if needed, they can easily reduce the kicking.

But the other way is not possible: if you can only do a 2-beat kick, that's a dead end.

And for the adult learner this becomes EVEN more important. It now takes years to practice it, so the sooner you start the better.

That TI starts with the 2-beat kick, I consider their greatest wrongdoing, and a big disservice to public health. Adult learners have typically especially problems with the kick, and that needed the highest priority, not to hide the problem. Their stroke will always be fundamentally deficient when not based on the ability of a strong kick. Likely of much greater concern (who cares if the stroke is deficient?) is the degeneration of the lower body, especially noticeable with older males (go to any public pool and look under water -- a depressive look indeed).

It is ironic, that a non-competitive approach like TI justifies their fundamental crippling of swimming via the purely race-based considerations of world-class swimmers, who flutter-kick naturally at the highest level.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by two beat kick on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:04 pm

The problem with this thread is you seem to be attacking something you realy have little proper understandng of as once again demonstrated by your assertion that TI Coaches teahch the 2 beat kick from the outset.  Actually TI coaches usually only teach the 2 beat kick at the end of the journey as an option.  Not sure where you get your information from.  Ledecky does use mainly the 2 beat/4 beat kick (I have already posted link to video rom Olympics)  as does Sun Yang (sometimes the hybrid 4 beat).  Neither Yang, nor Paltrineri, nor Ledecky use a flurtter kick or a 6 beat kick.  Paltrinieri uses the 2 beat kick.

Phelps uses a powerful six beat kick with emphasis on 1st and 4th.  I would not call that a flutter kick,it is a very precisly timed 6 beat.

My experience is different you yours with adult leaners, often I find the 2 beat kick is transformative for them helping them to engage their cores for the first time.  I actually find adult learners main problems are with breathing, head position when breathing, sinking legs through poor balance and trying to pull too hard and slipping the water. Of course some peoples' solution for sinking legs is "kick harder" but this is masking the problem and not solving it.


Last edited by two beat kick on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:22 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by SA on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:15 pm

I do agree you can use as 2BK at a modest strokerate.(with good overall technique, with sinking legs swimmers very good kicking technique)
Ledecky usually takes 40 strokes per 50 m. Thats not a long stroke for a world class swimmer.
Femke Heemskerk also 1m 80 tall, uses 35 strokes per 50m
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WynqFU98mf8

Which Ti coach are you?Suzanne?


Last edited by SA on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:27 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by two beat kick on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:21 pm

No I'm James in the UK

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by SA on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:26 pm

OK, welcome.
Dont be bothered with some critique. We do expect solid arguments here offcourse if someone claims to teach the most efficient stroke based on scientific study Smile

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:47 pm

Hi two beat kick,

I was not talking about the race, but about the TRAINING.
And about HEALTH.

What a world-class swimmer does in a race, is of little, likely of no importance to any adult learner.

We started THIS very thread with a video, where a reasonable 6-beat kick was "transformed" into a crappy 2-beat kick.
What do you say to THIS video?

Don't you have the 2-beat kick in the name? Why this, if it is not of importance.

Is what Terry Laughlin says of importance to TI?
http://www.swimwellblog.com/archives/2318/
Clear main emphasise on the 2-beat kick.

And the TI training doesn't do much kick-sets, or?

Let's have a look here:
http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-142.html
Clearly kicking in itself is not considered of much value.

The kick in TI doesn't exist, only as an addition to the arms.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by two beat kick on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:59 pm

Was the video of a perfect 2 beat kick?  Was that better tha wasting energy on a terible flutter kick?  What was the context of that video?

I do not speak for TI or Terry Laughlin.

I don't know of any instance of a 2 beat kick damaging anybody's 'HEALTH'.  I do know many great swimmes use it, Friis, Ledecly< Yang, paltriniari, Janet Evans and then many many more non "great" swimmers like myself.

I think the two beat kick is the most efficeint kick for most people.  But we teach it at the end as an advanced skill option. It is not for everybody but most of my clients who take the time to master it benefit enormously.  So do some great swimmers mentioned already (Evans. Ledecky, Paltrineieri, Yang, Friis).

You seem to be defending you postion by attacking mine. Why not try being a little more open minded perhaps?

Your tone is aggressive and hostile, I have tried to be measured and answer all questions as well as i can.  For you this seems to be some kind of war.

Take it easy.  I'm out.


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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:00 pm

Can't find the information about the kick sets of Katie Ledecky (Google seems to become worse every day -- the same information repeated many times, but everything else vanishes quickly).
I had seen for example some video where her transformation for the 2016 Olympics I believe were discussed -- and there heavy kick sets played an important role.
At https://www.yourswimlog.com/freestyle-kick/ you find her name mentioned (but no further link), when it comes to heavy kick sets.

Also Yang is a very strong kicker, the 50m around 30s. Again, can't find that information anymore. Perhaps it was a Chinese page (there were also his 50m times etc. listed).
Since I can't find anything about this anymore (very little found by Google, even if ones goes very far in the search), this has to be taken with a grain of salt. But his 50m time was 22.x s.

Is there any doubt that any of these swimmers mentioned has started with the 6-beat kick? And is very good with that? And does reduce the frequency only for long distances?

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by two beat kick on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:03 pm

They all go to the 6 beat for the last 50. Watch the first 700/1400. 2/4beat (4 beat is a 2 beat hybrid) Yup 2 beat not for sprinting. Who said it was?

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:08 pm

two beat kick wrote:
Your tone is aggressive and hostile, I have tried to be measured and answer all questions as well as i can.  For you this seems to be some kind of war.

Take it easy.  I'm out.

Since you are using rhetorical tricks. Like saying "read this book", which has a generic title, not related to the issue at all. Or mentioning great swimmers, which have nothing to do with the topic. Never replying to something directly, always shifting the terrain. Finally just opting out, camouflaging missing arguments.

The health issue is not about what is done, but what is NOT DONE. Since this is a public web page, we are somewhat responsible for our discussions.

Perhaps a new generic topic like "TI related issues" is introduced, where these things can be discussed. I won't interfere there, since then it's kind of clear that from the outset a general discussions is not wished.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:33 pm

two beat kick wrote:They all go to the 6 beat for the last 50.  Watch the first 700/1400. 2/4beat (4 beat is a 2 beat hybrid)  Yup 2 beat not for sprinting.  Who said it was?

The point is, that I claim, that any of these swimmers would take it for granted, that a strong 6-beat kick is the basis of swimming.

That is a fundamentally different perspective: what is the normal case, what is the exception (where for longer races the exception might become the standard).

And furthermore I claim, that every adult should start like that (like a club swimmer -- in this respect). A simple but in my opinion very important aspect is, that I consider the kick sets as an important "investment into old age". When you are 70, then it'll be very very difficult to start kick sets.

As I said: in our pool there are so many elderly males. All thin legs, zero bottoms. One can see how easily they fall.

Kicking in the water would be such a helpful exercise. Some of them actually take lessons. And then they get some kicking exercises -- but without any attention, just giving them a board, that's it --- and that naturally is not very motivating.

That's one line of argument (the health-direction -- kicking is very helpful for a healthy body, the more important the older the person is).

The other line is the swimming itself. Clearly, if the swimming is seen as concentrated in the upper body, then one locates every issue in there ("body position" is a kind of catch-all), and therefore that argument that the kicking "hides something". Since we do not have anything near a sound theory of swimming (in a scientific sense), such general assumptions are likely unavoidable. But it should be outspoken.

Once you consider the kicking as the driving force for swimming (with the arms "on top of that"), all that changes. And this position is what is assumed, as far as I can see, for club swimming. That doesn't mean it's "true", but there is at least a solid case for it.

Likely, when TI started, then "THE SYSTEM" was overpowering. After years one then realises that certain relaxations are needed.

SwimSmooth currently seems to be in a kind of earlier stage, where "THE SYSTEM" is still being formed (so they are hardening their positions).

Ideally, and I think it would be absolutely feasible, we would do the swimming without such (simple!) systems.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:40 pm

A general problem here seems the existence of the, hm, say, "public halo" (public image, media presence) of TI. That seems very much dominated by the trade mark (and I think that was at least semi-consciously done), the recognisable style of TI as the one stronger kick, followed/combined with a long glide, the arm digging very deep. We have someone like that in our pool, who says he hasn't been at any TI instruction, but he watched the videos.

On the one hand that is a source of income, on the other hand the teacher might not be happy about that.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by Tom65 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:41 am

two beat kick wrote:

TI focusses intially on your technique and it's proven that to learn new stuff and build new neural pathways, an easy relaxed pace is the fastest way the brain achieves this.

I've been swimming like that for the last several weeks, seems pretty pointless at this time.

Swithced to 25 metre sprints with short stops in between, reason being, try to keep my stroke together at real speeds for me (18 to 20 seconds for 25 metres). Gets and keeps the heart rate up so I get some real exercise and adaption to working hard.

Still do as many laps as the dawdlers in the same time frame, but most of them only do 10 odd minutes and head to the spa, one even claimed laps never get easier. Rolling Eyes
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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by SharkTank on Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:57 pm

I thought it was pretty good stuff. I think balance and timing are must-haves before you start to add strength and pace.

So the 2-beat kick simplifies the stroke, entry is important for sure (use paddles Speed tech will help this).

She's still heaving to breathe but with more pace, there is a nicer pocket to keep the head lower, simple as that.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by SA on Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:21 pm

if there are still people who want to swim smart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjrZC5YRDEA

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:58 pm

Yeah SA, seems that you like TI very much and cant live without it i think Smile

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by SA on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:58 pm

The sobering conclusion is that they cant teach me anything usefull anymore. Just swimming more will be the best smart secret.

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:58 am

cheers EXACTLY!

More bulk yardage makes you stronger and being stronger makes you comfortable in the water, if you achive your current pace comfortably, then you have the chance to be fast by pushing harder, then again you try to make that new pace more comfortable and after make it faster by pushing harder... the loop goes on like this. And eventually you are alread developing the proper technique for yourself while doing these distances.

Today morning there was a TI girl in the pool around 16-17 years old, in short course 25m pool she was splitting the 25ms with 27", 16 strokes per 25m. I dont care her strokes per lap, because the time is poor, a teenager at the age of my daughter should be faster than me in any case and in any distance, she was slower 5 seconds per lap (20 seconds per 100m) than even my recovery pace.

Be sure that if there was something useful in TI, I would be embracing it!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXTEV3mj8sW/

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Re: A Total Immersion clinic

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