Training Bregor
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Tom65
Sprinter
SA
Mike A
cottmiler
9 posters
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Training Bregor
by cottmiler Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:15 am
Owing to an injured ankle from tennis my 72 yo friend Bregor indicated that he wished to have a go at learning the crawl. Physically, slim, and reasonably fit but with upper body stiffness from too many years hunched over a computer.
Delighted at such a challenge for an avid armchair swimmer such as myself, we found a time slot a couple of weeks ago.
Week 1.
Well, he could move forward gently in the water with a modest variation of breast stroke but no crawl.
With the breast stroke we introduced techniques for getting the body horizontal in the water whilst the power is applied rather than swimming uphill at 45 degrees and we alternated this with attempts at starting the crawl.
The Crawl: Using a pullbuoy, and floating on his front we played about with hand sculling action. This was quite new to him.
That was Week 1 and I could see rather a big challenge ahead…..
Week 2.
Did some YTWL before the session. Regrettably still with no goggles, we improved the breast stroke a bit more.
Back to the crawl and this time with no pullbuoy, we tried some streamlined pushoffs from the wall.
After that I showed him how to lie on one side, one arm out front and float. To my amazement, he was able to do this although the legs could be a bit higher! Immediately I realized that we CAN master the crawl! Maybe having thinner legs enabled him to balance better.
After mentioning keeping the body rigid and head fixed, he installed the pullbuoy between the knees in order to get the body more horizontal whilst we tried some hand pulling.
With one arm out front he practiced a high elbow in the air and paddling with just the one arm. The important thing now was to make the forearm bend in at roughly right angles under the water.
He was very good at understanding what I asked, saw a demo from me each time and worked valiantly at trying to do it.
We look forward to the next session!
Delighted at such a challenge for an avid armchair swimmer such as myself, we found a time slot a couple of weeks ago.
Week 1.
Well, he could move forward gently in the water with a modest variation of breast stroke but no crawl.
With the breast stroke we introduced techniques for getting the body horizontal in the water whilst the power is applied rather than swimming uphill at 45 degrees and we alternated this with attempts at starting the crawl.
The Crawl: Using a pullbuoy, and floating on his front we played about with hand sculling action. This was quite new to him.
That was Week 1 and I could see rather a big challenge ahead…..
Week 2.
Did some YTWL before the session. Regrettably still with no goggles, we improved the breast stroke a bit more.
Back to the crawl and this time with no pullbuoy, we tried some streamlined pushoffs from the wall.
After that I showed him how to lie on one side, one arm out front and float. To my amazement, he was able to do this although the legs could be a bit higher! Immediately I realized that we CAN master the crawl! Maybe having thinner legs enabled him to balance better.
After mentioning keeping the body rigid and head fixed, he installed the pullbuoy between the knees in order to get the body more horizontal whilst we tried some hand pulling.
With one arm out front he practiced a high elbow in the air and paddling with just the one arm. The important thing now was to make the forearm bend in at roughly right angles under the water.
He was very good at understanding what I asked, saw a demo from me each time and worked valiantly at trying to do it.
We look forward to the next session!
cottmiler- Posts : 460
Join date : 2016-12-07
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:14 pm
"Good on yer" both!
Last Monday a chap at my pool saw me doing my 1/2 dozen, 10m fly efforts (followed by the "oldie" having a mid-length/endwall little recuperative rest!), and decided he would "have a go" at that most difficult of strokes! I could see that he was doing a straight pull through with the arms (apart from the body action being a bit awry also) - obviously having more "go" than me (fitter/younger!) - but he did valiently! When he got to the end wall where I was watching, I told him what "SolarEnergy" had told me "yonks" ago, about the fact that, towards the end of the arm's "scoop" action - it is mandatory to bring the elbows back towards the ribs, leaving the forearms inclined out in front, with the hands, more or less, beneath the nose, ready to do a longer range up-sweep, and lessen the strain on the shoulders. Maybe, if we meet up this coming Monday, I'll see if my little "passed on" gem of wisdom was helpful, and possibly give some other tips - if I haven't put him off completely!!!
Last Monday a chap at my pool saw me doing my 1/2 dozen, 10m fly efforts (followed by the "oldie" having a mid-length/endwall little recuperative rest!), and decided he would "have a go" at that most difficult of strokes! I could see that he was doing a straight pull through with the arms (apart from the body action being a bit awry also) - obviously having more "go" than me (fitter/younger!) - but he did valiently! When he got to the end wall where I was watching, I told him what "SolarEnergy" had told me "yonks" ago, about the fact that, towards the end of the arm's "scoop" action - it is mandatory to bring the elbows back towards the ribs, leaving the forearms inclined out in front, with the hands, more or less, beneath the nose, ready to do a longer range up-sweep, and lessen the strain on the shoulders. Maybe, if we meet up this coming Monday, I'll see if my little "passed on" gem of wisdom was helpful, and possibly give some other tips - if I haven't put him off completely!!!
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Re: Training Bregor
by Mike A Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:23 pm
I'm pretty terrible at fly, but the visualisation I use is "drawing a key-hole". So you scoop out the rounded part with EVF-type arms, then push back and straighten the arms with a slight outsweep for the second part.
Mike A- Posts : 125
Join date : 2016-12-05
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:25 pm
The old clip :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd67PMryIT0
shows the maestro in side view at time 0:12, in what I call "the scorpion position" i.e. the arms are at the catch, but during the down-sweep to the catch, he has done the major kick upbeat so that the lower legs are curled back/up a bit, with his feet breaking the surface (like the uplifted tail of a scorpion). He then starts his "scoop" or in-sweep circa time 0:13 - during which action the thighs are thrown forwards - (or it may be helpful to think of it like the breast stroke action of drawing the heels towards the bum, which involves the knees bending!) - in preparation for the later downbeat of the major kick, effected by thrusting the lower legs down. If you watch the action closely, you can see that as the upper arms pull back a bit beyond the vertical near the ribs, the forearms are inclined in front of the upper arms - giving the appearance at that stage, of an FS swimmer's naughty "dropped elbow" fault. But it's not naughty in fly, it's mandatory, giving a slightly greater range of movement/uplift for the up-sweep than in the FS single arm action. At that stage, because the elbows are bent (and the hands brought closer to the centre line) - there is less strain on the arms as they are pushed back/up during the up-sweep - straightening as they approach water exit for recovery. The major kick downbeat has, as well as the effect of propelling the body forwards, also IMO, the effect of "levering" the body upwards (which facilitates the inhalation).
As just a "fun" swimmer, I find it helpful to start the major kick downbeat an instant before the arms start their up-sweep, so as to take advantage (less strain on the arms!) of this mentioned "leverage" when the body is already being impelled forwards/up. Also I have a bit of a glide as the recovered arms wait an instant while the minor kick downbeat finishes (the little minor kick upbeat being done during arm recovery, as the weight of both recovering arms passing the shoulder line, causes the body to "topple" forwards a bit). According to Maglischo, vigorous kicking is the answer to getting more movement in fly stroke - so even the minor kick downbeat done before any glide, needs to be done energetically!
Afterthought! The transition from double arm "scoop" or "in-sweep" (an out/around action) to the up-sweep (a back/up action) must be more of a "hiccup" for competitive swimmers, because of having to overcome inertia in the change of direction in arm movement. Something that FS-ers don't have to worry about since the stroking arm's path does not change direction dramatically (unless doing the old-fashioned "S" bend arm movement)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd67PMryIT0
shows the maestro in side view at time 0:12, in what I call "the scorpion position" i.e. the arms are at the catch, but during the down-sweep to the catch, he has done the major kick upbeat so that the lower legs are curled back/up a bit, with his feet breaking the surface (like the uplifted tail of a scorpion). He then starts his "scoop" or in-sweep circa time 0:13 - during which action the thighs are thrown forwards - (or it may be helpful to think of it like the breast stroke action of drawing the heels towards the bum, which involves the knees bending!) - in preparation for the later downbeat of the major kick, effected by thrusting the lower legs down. If you watch the action closely, you can see that as the upper arms pull back a bit beyond the vertical near the ribs, the forearms are inclined in front of the upper arms - giving the appearance at that stage, of an FS swimmer's naughty "dropped elbow" fault. But it's not naughty in fly, it's mandatory, giving a slightly greater range of movement/uplift for the up-sweep than in the FS single arm action. At that stage, because the elbows are bent (and the hands brought closer to the centre line) - there is less strain on the arms as they are pushed back/up during the up-sweep - straightening as they approach water exit for recovery. The major kick downbeat has, as well as the effect of propelling the body forwards, also IMO, the effect of "levering" the body upwards (which facilitates the inhalation).
As just a "fun" swimmer, I find it helpful to start the major kick downbeat an instant before the arms start their up-sweep, so as to take advantage (less strain on the arms!) of this mentioned "leverage" when the body is already being impelled forwards/up. Also I have a bit of a glide as the recovered arms wait an instant while the minor kick downbeat finishes (the little minor kick upbeat being done during arm recovery, as the weight of both recovering arms passing the shoulder line, causes the body to "topple" forwards a bit). According to Maglischo, vigorous kicking is the answer to getting more movement in fly stroke - so even the minor kick downbeat done before any glide, needs to be done energetically!
Afterthought! The transition from double arm "scoop" or "in-sweep" (an out/around action) to the up-sweep (a back/up action) must be more of a "hiccup" for competitive swimmers, because of having to overcome inertia in the change of direction in arm movement. Something that FS-ers don't have to worry about since the stroking arm's path does not change direction dramatically (unless doing the old-fashioned "S" bend arm movement)!
Last edited by Don Wright on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:52 am; edited 4 times in total
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Views of the pupil
by BREGOR Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:11 pm
Well, after a lifetime of splashing unsuccessfully attempting to swim using crawl - but being able to do hundreds of metres of slow - apparently uphill breast stroke - I am at last biting the bullet and taking the opportunity, kindly provided by "Cottmiler", to learn how to swim crawl better. My ambition is to make the crawl my first choice stroke for distance and speed - albeit limited to what my body can achieve.
My feedback as a pupil:
The breast stroke modification to reduce the uphill style is to make my head go deeper and to have more of a dolphin movement. So far this has been more work and has meant that I have much less time to take a breath. I am not yet doing this modification well enough to feel the benefit. I have not yet achieved enough rhythm with the strokes. When the breathing part fails due to lack of time above water I tend to fall back for one stroke into a style where my head does not go so far under water just to get a breath.
My front crawl is at a very early stage I suppose. I have found the sideways floating and one arm strokes useful but am having to work on ensuring that strokes with left and right arms develop at the same rate. I look forward to introducing breathing into the stroke!!! Fortunately my years of white water kayak made me quite used to underwater swimming. Gosh, what an early stage this must be. Don't give up Cottmiler!
Bregor
My feedback as a pupil:
The breast stroke modification to reduce the uphill style is to make my head go deeper and to have more of a dolphin movement. So far this has been more work and has meant that I have much less time to take a breath. I am not yet doing this modification well enough to feel the benefit. I have not yet achieved enough rhythm with the strokes. When the breathing part fails due to lack of time above water I tend to fall back for one stroke into a style where my head does not go so far under water just to get a breath.
My front crawl is at a very early stage I suppose. I have found the sideways floating and one arm strokes useful but am having to work on ensuring that strokes with left and right arms develop at the same rate. I look forward to introducing breathing into the stroke!!! Fortunately my years of white water kayak made me quite used to underwater swimming. Gosh, what an early stage this must be. Don't give up Cottmiler!
Bregor
BREGOR- Posts : 7
Join date : 2017-08-18
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:51 am
BREGOR wrote:
...The breast stroke modification to reduce the uphill style is to make my head go deeper and to have more of a dolphin movement...
Good luck with your efforts Bregor - never give up - you have started on a venture of delight and discovery! I first learnt to swim on my back (over 60 years ago at 21) - it was easy because I was looking upwards at the sky and "what you can't see you can't worry about". It was a different story when I turned to learn how to swim on my tum, doing (or rather trying!) breast stroke, I could see the deep water beneath me, and timid soul that I am (only having learnt to float on my back, and not appreciating where our buoyancy is centred ) - I panicked a bit. Instead of doing the usual BS pull with the arms to get the head up for an inhalation, then do the "froggy kick", glide for a bit, and then do the arm pull for inhalation again - "muggins" was so scared of sinking, he kicked during the arm pull, didn't glide but just kicked quickly again (as the complete stroke cycle!) in what I thought was a necessary measure to prevent sinking!!! The memory of it makes me cringe!
Eventually I conquered my foolish fears, and learnt to angle my BS kick so that my body was propelled forwards at a slight angle below the surface i.e. head a bit lower than the rest of the straight body, with heels just about breaking the surface. Then during the stream-lined glide phase/exhalation, the air in the chest brings the body back up to the horizontal, and one can then do the arms diagonal out-sweep (down/out/back) to bring the mouth above the water line for an inhalation.
When I learnt in front crawl, that a stroking arm's "pressing down on the water" at the front of the action, causes the legs to sink - I changed my breast stroke arms out-sweep - to avoid that "too much pressing down" action, by making the initial part of the breast stroke arms out-sweep more of a gentle drop down/out/diagonally before exerting more force with the arms. When the outward moving hands went out of my field of view (head still looking frontwards for inhalation), I then knew I could apply more effort!
Noticed that you said you were introducing a bit of "a dolphin movement" - for the kick and glide, presumably immediately after the kick - IMO that's quite a good idea, and may give you some idea about the efficacy of using the "Pressing the Buoy" idea of "nodding the head down a bit", which has the effect an instant later of bringing the head and hips up a bit higher - ask instructor "cottmiler"!
Glad you are getting your body more horizontal during the stroke - countless other casual BS swimmers seem to swim with their bodies at about 45 degrees below the surface - mainly ladies of course, trying not to spoil their hairdo!
Best wishes / Don
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Re: Training Bregor
by cottmiler Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:58 pm
Lesson 3 was good in parts. We had new swim goggles!
Breast stroke advanced with the idea of head butting the water like Adam Peaty. Slowed down the arm and leg actions to enable front streamlining when the rear outboard motor is engaged. Body reached horizontal sometimes! The realisation that Bregor took fewer strokes per lap was most welcoming to him.
Back to developing a side body float for crawl; Bregor had eyes only for a Karlyn Pipes-Neilson lookalike swim coach patrolling the perimeter.
A wink and a nod later she quickly hijacked cottmiler,s patented swim coach lesson and loaded him up with impossible things to do. The result was that body float was lost and an almighty battle with the water resulted. It reminded me of a croc enticing a water buffalo in for a swim.
Time to have another breastroke lap to the other end and peace and quiet.
One arm practise with correct body float was better than last week. A problem might be the sea anchors at the end of his legs. He promises to have them 180 degrees by next week. I understand smootharnie is sending him an ankle stretcher.
Luckily Bregor has an exemplary sense of humour (his bro is a pro comedian).
B. Says he won,t miss next week,s lesson for anything - even if I am not there.
Breast stroke advanced with the idea of head butting the water like Adam Peaty. Slowed down the arm and leg actions to enable front streamlining when the rear outboard motor is engaged. Body reached horizontal sometimes! The realisation that Bregor took fewer strokes per lap was most welcoming to him.
Back to developing a side body float for crawl; Bregor had eyes only for a Karlyn Pipes-Neilson lookalike swim coach patrolling the perimeter.
A wink and a nod later she quickly hijacked cottmiler,s patented swim coach lesson and loaded him up with impossible things to do. The result was that body float was lost and an almighty battle with the water resulted. It reminded me of a croc enticing a water buffalo in for a swim.
Time to have another breastroke lap to the other end and peace and quiet.
One arm practise with correct body float was better than last week. A problem might be the sea anchors at the end of his legs. He promises to have them 180 degrees by next week. I understand smootharnie is sending him an ankle stretcher.
Luckily Bregor has an exemplary sense of humour (his bro is a pro comedian).
B. Says he won,t miss next week,s lesson for anything - even if I am not there.
cottmiler- Posts : 460
Join date : 2016-12-07
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:20 am
cottmiler wrote:Lesson 3 was good in parts. We had new swim goggles!
Bregor had eyes only for a Karlyn Pipes-Neilson lookalike swim coach patrolling the perimeter.
A wink and a nod later she quickly hijacked cottmiler,s patented swim coach lesson and loaded him up with impossible things to do.
B. Says he won,t miss next week,s lesson for anything - even if I am not there [i.e. he's hoping the KPN lookalike will be on duty again!]
(My "would-be" fly swimmer didn't turn up this week - so possibly I did frighten him off!)
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:38 am
\"cottmiler wrote:Lesson 3 was good in parts. We had new swim goggles!
Bregor had eyes only for a Karlyn Pipes-Neilson lookalike swim coach patrolling the perimeter.
A wink and a nod later she quickly hijacked cottmiler,s patented swim coach lesson and loaded him up with impossible things to do.
B. Says he won,t miss next week,s lesson for anything - even if I am not there
- hoping the KPN lookalike will be on duty again!
Sorry about the accidental repetition of the post - I got in a mess with the buttons!
(My "would-be" fly swimmer didn't turn up this week - so possibly I did frighten him off by trying to give a helpful tip about the elbows preceding the wrists at the start of the up-sweep, to lessen the strain on the arms, and increase the range of that phase!)
Last edited by Don Wright on Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:33 am
The "would-be-flyer" turned up again and introduced himself as Hussain during my swim session yesterday. (Saw him doing a bit of freestyle OK, so he's not a "newby") I don't think I imparted much useful "know-how" from my limited fund of knowledge - except to tell him about the YouTube clips "A Shaw Way To Fly", which "cottmiler" told me about yonks ago. Later that evening I realized that Hussain hasn't got much idea of the essential body action (although the arm action is passable, but he complained of a bit of arm ache) - so what I should have done, was to start him off on doing one-arm fly (with full fly body action but front crawl arm action for the stroking arm) which Bob Bowman says is a useful "test-bed" (and less tiring) for trying things out prior to trying the full stroke. Heigh-ho! think I may need to give a mini demo to show him 
- or perhaps more helpfully, point him to YouTube clips again! Think most beginners get the major kick upbeat OK, but forget to throw the thighs forward (or the equivalent of bending the knees) to get the lower legs in a good attitude (shins and feet insteps a bit more more backward-facing than downward) for the kick downbeat. That one-arm drill should help him get the right idea of having the arm at the catch, just as the feet are up by the surface ("scorpion" body attitude), and also "sort out" the minor/major kicks. No force put into the arms down-sweep to the catch (which can be started as the minor kick downbeat finishes), also the business towards the end of the "scoop" (aka in-sweep) of getting the upper arms back a bit beyond the vertical, while the hands/forearms are inclined out front a bit, so as to reduce the strain on the arms for the big up-sweep.
I still wonder if my suggestion - that the major kick downbeat is started a very short instant before the arms start their up-sweep - is a valid point or not! IMO the kick downbeat impels the body forwards (but not a great deal of "upward" effect at the head, to help inhalation) lessening the strain on the arms as they start their up-sweep. There is also the point, that at the start of that up-sweep, the inclined hands/forearms initially press down and then back - I think it is that action, which helps get the mouth up to clear the water line for inhalation!
- or perhaps more helpfully, point him to YouTube clips again! Think most beginners get the major kick upbeat OK, but forget to throw the thighs forward (or the equivalent of bending the knees) to get the lower legs in a good attitude (shins and feet insteps a bit more more backward-facing than downward) for the kick downbeat. That one-arm drill should help him get the right idea of having the arm at the catch, just as the feet are up by the surface ("scorpion" body attitude), and also "sort out" the minor/major kicks. No force put into the arms down-sweep to the catch (which can be started as the minor kick downbeat finishes), also the business towards the end of the "scoop" (aka in-sweep) of getting the upper arms back a bit beyond the vertical, while the hands/forearms are inclined out front a bit, so as to reduce the strain on the arms for the big up-sweep. I still wonder if my suggestion - that the major kick downbeat is started a very short instant before the arms start their up-sweep - is a valid point or not! IMO the kick downbeat impels the body forwards (but not a great deal of "upward" effect at the head, to help inhalation) lessening the strain on the arms as they start their up-sweep. There is also the point, that at the start of that up-sweep, the inclined hands/forearms initially press down and then back - I think it is that action, which helps get the mouth up to clear the water line for inhalation!
Last edited by Don Wright on Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:17 am; edited 4 times in total
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Re: Training Bregor
by cottmiler Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:04 am
I helped a young chappie today who is a strong open water swimmer.
He said he admired my swimming as it seemed effortless! Where have we heard that word before?
He was swimming a bit uphill so I explained the hand action needed to correct this.
Showed him the side floating action which he could do OK and also "pressing the buoy".
Meanwhile I played about with fly and side stroke.
He said he admired my swimming as it seemed effortless! Where have we heard that word before?
He was swimming a bit uphill so I explained the hand action needed to correct this.
Showed him the side floating action which he could do OK and also "pressing the buoy".
Meanwhile I played about with fly and side stroke.
cottmiler- Posts : 460
Join date : 2016-12-07
Re: Training Bregor
by SA Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:58 am
Nice work Cottmiler.
Also gave a guy some simple tips lately. Its unbelievable how completely ignorant people are about what they are doing. In self perception and simple physics. (push water back, not down.that kind of stuff)
Also gave a guy some simple tips lately. Its unbelievable how completely ignorant people are about what they are doing. In self perception and simple physics. (push water back, not down.that kind of stuff)
SA- Posts : 374
Join date : 2016-12-10
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:15 pm
Hooray for "Pressing the Buoy"! Think a lot of swimmers could benefit by knowing/applying that idea to momentarily get the body higher in the water, and not just for facilitating inhalation! In fly it is that initial pressing down of the head (my beloved "head-nod" business) which initiates an upward impulse, or little ripple, along the spine to get the feet higher than the head at the end of a major kick upbeat. IMO it is also useful in freestyle if one has problems with inhaling on the "less-happy" side. Think it can be also useful in breast stroke as one finishes the kick - in order to keep the legs up high during the glide.cottmiler wrote:I helped a young chappie today who is a strong open water swimmer.
He said he admired my swimming as it seemed effortless! Where have we heard that word before?
He was swimming a bit uphill so I explained the hand action needed to correct this.
Showed him the side floating action which he could do OK and also "pressing the buoy".
Meanwhile I played about with fly and side stroke.
I initially tried quoting your post "cottmiler" and edited the quote to prune all except the "pressing the buoy" bit, before adding my little comment above. But pressing the SEND just sent it off down a "black hole"! The WIFI transfer rate is appalling here - some bods seem to be monopolising it. Maybe I'll switch from SKY to BT infinity - which is supposed to be better!
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Re: Training Bregor
by cottmiler Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:25 pm
Lesson 4.
Before we got in the water we waved our arms in the air a bit in order to get the idea of how the arms move in the water. B. being a kayaker makes things easy for me to explain to him.
A quick look at under water hand action in breastroke was followed by sink downs and scull action.
The crawl development was started by taking up side float position. Gentle one arm paddling was commenced in a slow controlled manner. Then one Finis Freestyler paddle was added and was used to demonstrate how the paddle action must work since any angle error causes the legs to drop disastrously.
Check: At all stages the importance of body balance was stressed and maintained quite well since B. was told to peep back at his leg position under water to ensure they were just at water level. Side Float Position.
After quite a bit of paddling in side float position we moved to flat on the front and how the paddle power twists the body into side float position. Repeat Check, check, check.
This paddling need some above water recovery and we used the elbow leading forward, finger tip dragging technique. This keeps the arm mass over the centre line and allows easy hand entry with high elbow action.
Now the moment of truth! Could B go from flat on the front to one edge then flat then over to the other edge? All while employing the Check?
Yes!
He quickly managed several strokes in this manner, very slow and controlled and was I delighted! All under Check conditions. I wish that I had understood this 20 years ago.
You can easily see that learning the crawl when you are not maintaining a horizontal side float position must make things impossibly difficult and you are just fighting the water.
Before we got in the water we waved our arms in the air a bit in order to get the idea of how the arms move in the water. B. being a kayaker makes things easy for me to explain to him.
A quick look at under water hand action in breastroke was followed by sink downs and scull action.
The crawl development was started by taking up side float position. Gentle one arm paddling was commenced in a slow controlled manner. Then one Finis Freestyler paddle was added and was used to demonstrate how the paddle action must work since any angle error causes the legs to drop disastrously.
Check: At all stages the importance of body balance was stressed and maintained quite well since B. was told to peep back at his leg position under water to ensure they were just at water level. Side Float Position.
After quite a bit of paddling in side float position we moved to flat on the front and how the paddle power twists the body into side float position. Repeat Check, check, check.
This paddling need some above water recovery and we used the elbow leading forward, finger tip dragging technique. This keeps the arm mass over the centre line and allows easy hand entry with high elbow action.
Now the moment of truth! Could B go from flat on the front to one edge then flat then over to the other edge? All while employing the Check?
Yes!
He quickly managed several strokes in this manner, very slow and controlled and was I delighted! All under Check conditions. I wish that I had understood this 20 years ago.
You can easily see that learning the crawl when you are not maintaining a horizontal side float position must make things impossibly difficult and you are just fighting the water.
cottmiler- Posts : 460
Join date : 2016-12-07
Re: Training Bregor
by SA Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:38 pm
I read your linked article againd from Dave Scott. So totally totally spot on. great article
usable for your victim too isnt it, or more for stiff triathletes?
http://lavamagazine.com/ask-the-man-10-tips-to-fine-tuning-your-swimming/
usable for your victim too isnt it, or more for stiff triathletes?
http://lavamagazine.com/ask-the-man-10-tips-to-fine-tuning-your-swimming/
SA- Posts : 374
Join date : 2016-12-10
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:09 am
Hussain, my "would-be-flyer" turned up Saturday - and I could clearly see the kicking was in need of being "sorted out" (a sure sign is when the arms don't exit the water cleanly and proceed to scrape the top of the water). So despite my earlier misgivings over my ability to do a decent demo - I did just that, while he walked alongside to see the action - just 1-arm fly at first for him to see the fly kick action (which is the same for the full stroke), but doing the front crawl arm stroke/inhalation action. Did another demo to show him the "lifting" effect on the legs of "pressing the buoy" while doing front crawl action with both arms but leaving the legs absolutely idle - think he got the idea OK. I put together a few notes with pointers to Google/Youtube clips (*) etc, and popped them in an envelope to be handed to him next time he turns up, and gets his membership card "flashed" at the gym desk to let him through the turn-stile!
( * There now seems to be some unexpected business going on with YouTube clip linkages. I used to be able to quote just the alphanumeric sequence after the "youtube.com/watch?v=" part of the link. But most times now it gives me a "rhubarb" message that the video is not available - yet when I click the Google info on the link it works as expected! I noticed one exception to that difficulty viz, the link : -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd67PMryIT0
- which is an old familiar Phelps demo - that still works directly! Maybe it's a matter of the age/popularity of the clip - some old clips may have been "retired" and now only view-able via Google! Have others noticed this business?)
( * There now seems to be some unexpected business going on with YouTube clip linkages. I used to be able to quote just the alphanumeric sequence after the "youtube.com/watch?v=" part of the link. But most times now it gives me a "rhubarb" message that the video is not available - yet when I click the Google info on the link it works as expected! I noticed one exception to that difficulty viz, the link : -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd67PMryIT0
- which is an old familiar Phelps demo - that still works directly! Maybe it's a matter of the age/popularity of the clip - some old clips may have been "retired" and now only view-able via Google! Have others noticed this business?)
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Re: Training Bregor
by cottmiler Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:36 am
Bregor's lesson yesterday was trying to maintain a side float with a one arm pull action.
He was much better using the right arm and could occasionally breathe! Having studied some videos he was even bringing the arm forward to a front entry position.
However, with the left arm, he struggled to to keep the horizontal side float and the legs dropped with disastrous results.
What is odd however is that throughout his 45 mins torture session he had a huge grin on his face.
What am I doing wrong?
He was much better using the right arm and could occasionally breathe! Having studied some videos he was even bringing the arm forward to a front entry position.
However, with the left arm, he struggled to to keep the horizontal side float and the legs dropped with disastrous results.
What is odd however is that throughout his 45 mins torture session he had a huge grin on his face.
What am I doing wrong?
cottmiler- Posts : 460
Join date : 2016-12-07
SA- Posts : 374
Join date : 2016-12-10
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:07 am
Bregor's lesson yesterday was trying to maintain a side float with a one arm pull action.
Hi "cott....."!
I wouldn't dare to presume on your teaching abilities - but have you got a bit "stuck" on the need to be able to float horizontally on the side? If at any time in learning FS the legs tend to sink you know that, at the right time (e.g. at arm entry on the breathing side) a bit of "Pressing the buoy" can do wonders for getting the body up closer to the surface.
I wondered how I would try to impart a bit of "know-how" for teaching FS. Think my approach would be to initially encourage the beginner to push-off from the wall - keeping flat and using a very crude "windmill" straight arm action (one arm paddling through under the body, as the other is diametrically opposite doing a recovery - just 4 arm strokes say, with no body roll or attempt to inhale, exhaling steadily while looking at the bottom, also asking the beginner to give a sharp kick every time a recovered arm enters the water - then stand up for air! That would be a possible basis for introducing other ideas (body roll mantra, more efficient arm/leg actions etc)!
cottmiler wrote:He was much better using the right arm and could occasionally breathe! Having studied some videos he was even bringing the arm forward to a front entry position.
However, with the left arm, he struggled to to keep the horizontal side float and the legs dropped with disastrous results.
What is odd however is that throughout his 45 mins torture session he had a huge grin on his face.[ Are you sure it was a grin and not a grimace?
What am I doing wrong?
Hi "cott....."!
I wouldn't dare to presume on your teaching abilities - but have you got a bit "stuck" on the need to be able to float horizontally on the side? If at any time in learning FS the legs tend to sink you know that, at the right time (e.g. at arm entry on the breathing side) a bit of "Pressing the buoy" can do wonders for getting the body up closer to the surface.
I wondered how I would try to impart a bit of "know-how" for teaching FS. Think my approach would be to initially encourage the beginner to push-off from the wall - keeping flat and using a very crude "windmill" straight arm action (one arm paddling through under the body, as the other is diametrically opposite doing a recovery - just 4 arm strokes say, with no body roll or attempt to inhale, exhaling steadily while looking at the bottom, also asking the beginner to give a sharp kick every time a recovered arm enters the water - then stand up for air! That would be a possible basis for introducing other ideas (body roll mantra, more efficient arm/leg actions etc)!
Last edited by Don Wright on Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Re: Training Bregor
by Sprinter Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:01 pm
Just a remark on Kicking on the side: for more competitive swimming it seems important here to avoid the position fully parallel to the side wall, but some twist is needed for a more natural swimming position. For slower swimming likely it doesn't matter, as drag is much less of an issue here, and there is enough time to swing from one side to the other. Now that has a good chance to introduce overrotation, which will be of a hindrance if later the learner wants to swim faster, but for the case at hand that likely doesn't matter much.
Sprinter- Posts : 245
Join date : 2016-12-05
Re: Training Bregor
by Don Wright Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:46 am
Sprinter wrote:Just a remark on Kicking on the side: for more competitive swimming it seems important here to avoid the position fully parallel to the side wall, but some twist is needed for a more natural swimming position. For slower swimming likely it doesn't matter, as drag is much less of an issue here, and there is enough time to swing from one side to the other. Now that has a good chance to introduce overrotation, which will be of a hindrance if later the learner wants to swim faster, but for the case at hand that likely doesn't matter much.
Hi "Sprinter"!
About the business when "kicking on the side", and efforts to keep fully parallel with a nearby pool wall (or lane rope)? I wondered if you wrote that 'cos of elites apparent more efficient leg action, when on the tum, being more behind the torso line, and avoidance of bringing the thighs much in front of that line? When kicking on the side, think that would soon produce a "non-parallel-with-wall" path forwards, needing minor adjustments periodically, to keep on course!
I haven't tried much such action when doing "on-the-side" flutter kicking. But have noticed that "skewed or off-course path" effect when I do body dolphin at the surface on the side (one arm outstretched and the other arm resting against the hip) Although I intend to keep a course parallel with the adjacent lane rope, starting off some 3ft away from it - I invariably end up with my shoulders brushing against it! The lower legs move back quite a way behind the rest of the body during the dolphin kick "upbeats" (the torso/legs do a sort of "backward curl") - but there isn't so much leg movement in front of the body during the kick downbeats (the thighs are thrown forwards, knees bending, then lower legs kick down with knees straightening).
Course adjustments when on the side are, I think, easier if instead of having an outstretched lead arm - it is allowed to hang down a bit in the water by one's side - then it can be used as a "rudder" or a low paddle, to do course corrections!
It seems to me, that the "off-course path" is all about how much the legs move back behind the body line, and how much the insteps press against the water on the kicking action forwards!
On further thought - I always do my "on-the-side" drills (just one length of each!) laying on my right side - and when I flutter kick facing the lane rope, I always seem to go off-course away from it - when I body dolphin, with the lane rope behind me, I always seem to go off-course towards it (only a single lane in my pool, the rest an un-roped area). So the tendency with both drills, is for me to go off-course in the direction behind me - adding credence (I think) to my surmise above!
Last edited by Don Wright on Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:53 am; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : adding further info)
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
What a day! Some real progress.
by BREGOR Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:10 pm
Today, for the first time, I swam a 25m length using front crawl!!!!
It was for me such an achievement that I had to shout a loud "Yee Haa" to the surprise of other pool users! Our local "KPN" congratulated me and said I should be proud.
I managed to repeat the achievement as well. However both times I was swimming towards the deep end, so if my flotation started to fail there was depth to cope with it. However I failed to swim a length towards the shallow end as when my flotation started to fail my dangling legs were to near the bottom of the pool.
Many things helped me. The main factor was the guidance from Cottmiler. Thank you very much for that and for your patience!
As well as persisting in making me achieve and retain body balance, he provided many tips he kept my progress at a pace that was within what I could do. Also he steered me to study some items on Utube. KPN was perhaps a bit advanced for me and I found that coach Mary Jo suggested several useful drills that I could cope with easier. The relay drill and the trailing fingers drill were massively helpful. Also the tips on breathing assisted this break-through. The relay kept my arms heading over my head to the same front point and if I led with me elbows and trailed my fingers it seemed to come together.
Incidentally my breast stroke is improving as my body balance is better. As a crude measure of this I started by taking 20 strokes to complete a length. Now it is down to 16!
I look forward to next week. I still have a huge amount to learn - but so far so good.
BREGOR :
It was for me such an achievement that I had to shout a loud "Yee Haa" to the surprise of other pool users! Our local "KPN" congratulated me and said I should be proud.
I managed to repeat the achievement as well. However both times I was swimming towards the deep end, so if my flotation started to fail there was depth to cope with it. However I failed to swim a length towards the shallow end as when my flotation started to fail my dangling legs were to near the bottom of the pool.
Many things helped me. The main factor was the guidance from Cottmiler. Thank you very much for that and for your patience!
As well as persisting in making me achieve and retain body balance, he provided many tips he kept my progress at a pace that was within what I could do. Also he steered me to study some items on Utube. KPN was perhaps a bit advanced for me and I found that coach Mary Jo suggested several useful drills that I could cope with easier. The relay drill and the trailing fingers drill were massively helpful. Also the tips on breathing assisted this break-through. The relay kept my arms heading over my head to the same front point and if I led with me elbows and trailed my fingers it seemed to come together.
Incidentally my breast stroke is improving as my body balance is better. As a crude measure of this I started by taking 20 strokes to complete a length. Now it is down to 16!
I look forward to next week. I still have a huge amount to learn - but so far so good.
BREGOR :
BREGOR- Posts : 7
Join date : 2017-08-18
Don Wright- Posts : 223
Join date : 2017-07-11
Age : 88
Location : Telford, Shropshire
Re: Training Bregor
by Tom65 Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:32 am
Well done.
I remember my first 25, ecstatic. Doubt I could have learnt freestyle in my 70's. It was hard enough in my late 40's.
I remember my first 25, ecstatic. Doubt I could have learnt freestyle in my 70's. It was hard enough in my late 40's.
Tom65- Posts : 58
Join date : 2016-12-06
Re: Training Bregor
by cottmiler Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:55 am
Lessons have been infrequent for various reasons but yesterday we made it. Also Bregor just hasn't had the time on his own in the pool because he wishes to get some basic principles clear in his mind before practising.
Yesterday we learnt that you don't think about breathing IN but instead concentrate on breathing OUT and hard. This was new to him and stroke mechanics and body balance had to just follow along.
Working always with the Finis Fulcrums, we had a go at 6-1-6. As always the survival instinct overpowers the swim instructions and the result is too hurried and panicky.
When occasionally he started from a good side float position he did do a good pull and was amazed to find that his body flicked over onto the other side. naturally he wanted to do the same with the other arm now but body balance would get lost.
Nevertheless a definite advance from last time. Nicole in a stunning body suit commented that he "couldn't do that last time" when he had done something looking quite good.
He can now move quite fast along the pool for half a length and we look forward to next week and Nicole!
Yesterday we learnt that you don't think about breathing IN but instead concentrate on breathing OUT and hard. This was new to him and stroke mechanics and body balance had to just follow along.
Working always with the Finis Fulcrums, we had a go at 6-1-6. As always the survival instinct overpowers the swim instructions and the result is too hurried and panicky.
When occasionally he started from a good side float position he did do a good pull and was amazed to find that his body flicked over onto the other side. naturally he wanted to do the same with the other arm now but body balance would get lost.
Nevertheless a definite advance from last time. Nicole in a stunning body suit commented that he "couldn't do that last time" when he had done something looking quite good.
He can now move quite fast along the pool for half a length and we look forward to next week and Nicole!
cottmiler- Posts : 460
Join date : 2016-12-07
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