An old "freak" wants to swim FS without any rests!

Hi folks!

During my swim yesterday, I was much chagrined to see an "uneducated"    FS swimmer doing length after length without any need for a "pit-stop" for a rest - the style was poor but recognizable.  His mouth was above the water line most of the time and he appeared to be inhaling to the left during the left arm stroke and doing the same on the other side (bilateral breathing!),  head nodding to the left/right like a nodding donkey.  The style was similar to that used in water polo - his legs being dragged along at some 20-30 degrees below the surface.  I've seen this sort pf thing over the years, but somehow it really rankled with me when I compared it with my "supposedly more educated" efforts    in which I can just about manage to do 2 lengths without a rest, but out of breath and arms getting very tired.

What really upsets me, is that I can swim Old English Backstroke almost effortlessly - length after length without any rest, at a reasonable rate.  Back crawl is more of a problem with arms and legs always in action - and seldom swim more than a couple of lengths of that due to breathlessness/tiredness.  Am not keen on Breast stroke so I seldom swim that now - but as with O.E. backstroke, there is a rest while the arms pull and legs kick and vice versa - without the inclusion of an inactive glide.

By swimming FS at a much slower rate than normal - just "dribbling along" - I can make a slower arm action which extends the "inhalation window" and "easing off" on any kicking.  Also, as a help to keep more horizontal I've been "pressing the buoy" (nodding the head below level of outstretched arm) during the non-inhalation arm stroke. The only other thing that comes to mind is that semi "polo" style technique mentioned in the above first para - but keeping horizontal while inhaling to the left and the right during those arm up-sweeps.  That will necessitate a more forcible quick exhalation to avoid blowing up with air.   Also, (Paul Newsome of SS would have apoplexy!) introduce a glide between left and right armstrokes!!!

Over the years I've tried other things, like Ruth Kayzee's method of switching to another easier stroke when tired before returning to FS -  using a front snorkel (found the air tube too narrow for my liking!) etc,.

Another "pointer" to my level of fitness in dealing with continuous action, is how I "get on" doing one-arm fly.  In that, I do it quite leisurely, alternating the arms after every few strokes.   I manage a single length of that  - but the breathing is becoming a bit more fraught so need a rest before carrying on to the next length.

I would really like to solve this problem before my "time is up" or "pop my clogs", so have you bods any suggestions? I'm just green with envy at the ease with which the majority are able to swim FS without problems.

When I ws in my mid-20s I thought nothing of swimming a mile FS in an open-air lido-type pool (I hasten to add that my style was rather "uneducated" then!).  Somewhere over the years things deteriorated, and I ended up with this silly business of needing a frequent rest! Some 4 years ago I think ,"Sprinter" encouraged me to see what was possible for me swimming FS with a front snorkel - I got nearly to the end of my 3rd length in the 20m pool I use - before weariness in the arms and fraught breathing brought me to a stop! It seems that I need to add a resting glide to my FS stroke - even if it means just dribbling along at snail pace!

I can understand what you are saying. I am now the oldest person with our family name and it,s an uncomfortable feeling. When a new baby comes into the family an elder must depart.

As for the swimming, I,ve been preaching "swimming downhill" for many years and even experiencing such a magical occurrence sometimes!

There is no escape from mastering this skill. It was Terry Laughlin,s lightbulb moment when he discovered this and he built an empire on it.

You know the routine: Ankle Band, Unco and Unco with Ankle Band.

Plus things like Fingertip Drag, Sailboat, Agility Paddles, Catch and Throw etc..

Hi "cott..."!

Yus, over the years we've just about read, seen, or tried it all!  The spirit is (still) willing - but oh the flesh is (now) weak.

When I look back, I think a lot of my trouble may be due to gradual reduction in lung capacity (which is a well-known difficulty for older bods, and I don't suppose being "unzipped" for a 5 hour-ish heart surgery in 2010 helped matters in the breathing/blood circulation dept, breathing cold air afterwards was painful on the bronchial tubes, and had a repeat problem with that, earlier this year).  The below normal lung capacity must affect buoyancy, and how long one can keep going before needing a "breather"/rest  (I also discovered it affects one's ability to sing in a group - very soon out of "puff", while others were still holding a note).  If the circulating blood doesn't get properly oxygenated, then the muscles are soon going to experience fatigue - it's all very complicated physiologically!

 If you remember "smootharnie"'s little "buoyancy poll" on the old SS forum - think I had the lowest buoyancy on his list.  So, sad though it is - I just have to put up with it and think about "work-around" solutions - and keep at it - at least it's good to be "alive and kicking" still!

The passing away of relatives reminds us that time may be shorter than we hope - my 70 year old sister died last month - and she was 12 years younger than me!

Think we're doing the best form of exercise - keep up the swimming!

Don Wright wrote: That will necessitate a more forcible quick exhalation to avoid blowing up with air.   Also, (Paul Newsome of SS would have apoplexy!) introduce a glide between left and right armstrokes!!!

I reckon Paul would forgive you for a bit of a glide, after I'd mastered swimming but only as individual lengths, I'd sometimes get almost anxious with being puffed whilst trying to maintain correct form. So I allowed myself to do as many long inhales with arm out front and breathing side doing a slomo recovery as it took to get comfortable again.

Still do it occasionally, 47 years of not being able to go unaided (flotation device of some sort) in water over my head left a few scars I guess.

Tom65 wrote:...47 years of not being able to go unaided (flotation device of some sort) in water over my head left a few scars I guess...

Hi Tom! - what have you been up to???

My "not very well-thought-out" plan of doing some sort of "languid" FS, with 2 arm stroke inhalations, on each side (nodding donkey style!) separated by a glide at the end of each arm stroke, was a "wash-out" - and in fact I ended up doing just a normal slightly modified FS, with inhalations on every third arm-stroke.  I seldom do more than a couple of lengths of that, amongst the other things on my list.  However, I must have "struck gold" yesterday - 'cos I got to the end of each length without being breathless, or my ticker pounding furiously - and found it possible to continue without much of a pause. I was pleased enough to do another 6 lengths of that  - I just hope I can replicate that modified style in further sessions.  You know what it's like - you manage to do something, and then somehow after only a couple of days off "it's gone", and you end up wondering exactly what it was that made the earlier difference!


I do however (without cheering too loudly) think I might have stumbled on an answer to my inability to keep going when on the tum.  It's all about the rate of breathing - particularly the exhalation process in my case.  From time to time, I have noted that I mostly manage better when using a longer gap between the usual 2 arm-stroke breathing scheme.  The 4 stroke sequence is a bit too long for me, unless I accelerate the arm action (tiring!) so that the next inhalation comes around sooner.

It seems that the 3 arm-stroke sequence is easier for me - except it involves the problem of alternately inhaling on my "less-happy" side...  

(Re this, I did see a video clip recently in which the coach was shouting out to his pupil "Breathe-1-2-Breath-1-2-Breathe ..."etc - which I found helpful instead of trying to count 1-2-3 and breath on that last stroke - you just wouldn't believe what a very short-term memory I have, I sometimes forget what my stroke count is when intending to inhale on each 3rd arm-stroke, but sometimes it may actually be on the 2nd or 4th arm stroke, through concentrating so much on doing each stroke as well as possible. )

I think that yesterday, I managed that difficulty much better than before - prolonging each inhalation as much as feasible and then making a slow steady exhalation  during the head-down strokes (and "pressing the buoy" for each of them).  I made a point of not lifting my head for inhalations, just keeping as horizontal as possible, relying on just body roll and neck turn to get to air, without any pressing down of the lead arm. Combined with a little kick each time an arm entered the water, and easing up on any kicking - I was pleased with the result, although to most of the bods on this forum, they would have said I was just "dribbling along"!  At the time, I didn't have the "guts" to put my "modified style" to the acid test - of trying multiple lengths without any pause - was just pleased that my heart wasn't trying to pound through the ribs!

I can see that I must pay more attention to what seems a "wandering arm action" when getting ready to inhale on my "less-happy" side at the alternate third arm stroke - I can't at present "pin-down" what actually happens.

Will see how things go at next session tomorrow!

I like PN,s "Bubble, Bubble, Breathe" which really means Bubble out quite hard, Bubble out quite hard with an extra puff out, then watch the exit hand come out and breathe in long.

Bilateral breathing.

Yer been OK Thanks Don.
Did get diagnosed with a birth defect of the heart recently. Bicuspid Aortic valve, reckons I might need a new one in 30 or 10 or 20 years.
I'm using the fault as an excuse for not being the athlwtic type back in the day.

cottmiler wrote:I like PN,s "Bubble, Bubble, Breathe"  which really means Bubble out quite hard, Bubble out quite hard with an extra puff out, then watch the exit hand come  out and breathe in  long.

Bilateral breathing.

Hi "cott..."!   There is only one FS variant (a GoSwim drill!) I do which requires forcible exhalation - 'cos of moving the arms like bees wings - so fast (for me anyway!) that the window of opportunity is very narrow, and an inhalation needs to be a very brief snatched gasp before returning the head to the front and "pressing the buoy" to get the inactive legs up high.   It's probably one of my fastest efforts - but in my other FS variants, exhalation is a much more leisurely business - and that's the way I  prefer it. Thank you for the "elucidation" I recognized the SS mantra - but hadn't realized before that it meant some degree of forcible exhalation.  For "leisurely" swimming I think forcing the air out might not be conducive to relaxation - but I guess it all depends on what one is trying to achieve - in my case the "utmost" relaxation, so I can continue almost indefinitely - with no "pit-stops"!  


HOWEVER!    I do understand that there is no such thing as "effortless swimming"!

Bye / Don

Tom65 wrote:Yer been OK Thanks Don.
Did get diagnosed with a birth defect of the heart recently. Bicuspid Aortic valve, reckons I might need a new one in 30 or 10 or 20 years.
I'm using the fault as an excuse for not being the athlwtic type back in the day.

Hi Tom! Very sorry to read about your problem - you never mentioned it when we were on the old SS forum.  Some of us are born with problems that only show up in later life - am certain I was born with quite bad myopia -  when taken out in a push-chair in the evening, and it happened to be a moonlight night - I could never see a crescent or full noon clearly - so when in toddlers early reading books there were illustrations of nursery rhymes including "Hey diddle the cat played on a fiddle" and a cow jumping over a crescent moon - I could never tie that up with how I actually saw the moon!  It wasn't till i was 7 y.o. that the teacher in the infant school complained to my parents - wondering whether I was just stupid (yeah maybe she had a point there! ) when she chalked up little sums on the blackboard expecting us to supply the answers - and at that time I totally mis-understood what was needed.

Early this year as a result of a cardiac scare, they put me through the "chest pain protocol" - and I did see a copy of the results sent back to my GP, saying that there was no stenosis of my heart's aortic valve - good so far, but that made me wonder about the other valve!

Very best wishes to you - we all just do what we can!!!

Bye / Don

Don Wright wrote:

Hi Tom! Very sorry to read about your problem - you never mentioned it when we were on the old SS forum.  S

Very best wishes to you - we all just do what we can!!!

Bye / Don

Only found out a couple of months ago, Doc picked up a slight murmur, blood squirting off to the side as it goes through the valve,seems these things do indeed show up after 50. No biggie, they even G-force tested Israeli pilots with BAV's, no difference to normal valves in the tests.
Got a Coronary Artery Calcium Score done whilst they were looking for the murmur, zero percent blockage.

Hi Tom! Hope all goes well for the future - At the gym, my wife heard that a chap in his early 70s had collapsed about a month ago in a Spin class and was rushed off to hospital.  Apparently he had a leaky heart valve and is now recovering fine, after a lengthy op to replace the valve.

On my little efforts to do multiple lengths of FS using 3 arm stroke bilateral breathing without a "pit-stop"!  I devoted most of my session yesterday to doing it, the breathing wasn't so laboured (well I wasn't putting much "go" into the action!), but the ticker was still pounding away wildly, despite the relatively low effort expended.

Re what I wrote in an earlier post : -

I can see that I must pay more attention to what seems a "wandering arm action" when getting ready to inhale on my "less-happy" side at the alternate third arm stroke - I can't at present "pin-down" what actually happens.


I did manage to pin-it down yesterday - and it was just the common fault of the lead right arm (which should have been ram-rod straight) "crumpling up" just as I was in the middle of inhaling to my left (less happy) side - to make matters worse, I felt the toes of my right foot touch the floor of the 4ft deep pool while I was rolled away from my left stroking arm doing it's up-sweep, and me still inhaling.  It was badly off the the centre line - the "wandering arm" seemed to want to start the next arm stroke before the other one had finished Doh!!!  This fault occurred about twice during a total of some 25 lengths (with a wee rest at the end of each!)


The business of my toes touching the bottom, made me wonder about my buoyancy (since I always swim with buoyancy shorts now).  So I experimented a bit!  Lying fully immersed with arms outstretched in stream-lined pos, I floated beautifully on my tum.  In a "Superman Glide" attitude with one arm outstretched and the other by my side - I could look down/back and see that my legs were probably some 20-30 degrees below the surface, with toes possibly some 2ft from the pool floor.  With both arms at the sides, no floating possible, my legs quickly sank to the bottom.

Was surprised that the buoyancy uplift from the B.S. didn't seem to help much - but could understand from the little experiment why we are advised to swim with both arms in the front quadrants (FQS) for best balance (and flotation, as I discovered), one arm stroking UW, and the other recovering AW.

Caught myself doing the "collapsing lead arm" fault (plus others!) again, while inhaling to my awkward "less happy" left side - in 3 arm stroke inhalation FS. Quite obviously, although being a "bit long in the tooth" now - I never took all the good advice available and put it into practice - so am still "living with" faults like not keeping the kick fairly narrow, rolling too much etc, as described in : -

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCDRmpS8N5s

Have to admit that, I try to start the inhalation to my left. very early in the left UW arm stroke, roll a bit more than I would when inhaling on my "happy" right side - and forget what the legs are doing during that inhalation to the left, so no wonder my right foot touches the bottom when the attempt to inhale to the left goes awry.  Much careful correction required!

Another point mentioned in the above clip, was that one should look back/sideways diagonally while inhaling and not directly to the side (which is my usual practice!) - I suppose it could be thought of as, following the direction of movement of the stroking arm through, almost to the arm's water exit - with eyes AW.


Funny how things go so "pear-shaped" when we do something that works against our normal behaviour - particularly when doing something with our "awkward side".  I think this "collection of FS faults" has only showed up because of trying more "bilateral stuff"!

Don said "so no wonder my right foot touches the bottom when the attempt to inhale to the left goes awry. "

This is odd because when you roll onto your right side to breathe left, you should be raising the right leg to the surface.

This is where tight hip flexors can hold you back.

The left leg will drop somewhat.

cottmiler wrote:Don said "so no wonder my right foot touches the bottom when the attempt to inhale to the left goes awry. "

This is odd because when you roll onto your right side to breathe left, you should be raising the right leg to the surface.  

This is where  tight hip flexors can hold you back.

The left leg will drop somewhat.

Hi "cott..."!

Wal - I did call myself a "freak" - but you have a good point!  I suspect that in my keen-ness to get air when inhaling to my left - the leg kicking gets forgotten - so the legs splay wide (due to "the out-of-normal" action for me!)  - and as am rolled to my my right side - there is little wonder that with splayed legs, the toes of my right foot touch the floor!  

A great deal of correction needed!

These problems haven't surfaced before, 'cos I used to keep my legs very close together with a very subdued kick when trying this bilateral stuff - and being content with just a snatched breath.  It all went wrong when trying to get a more full inhalation to the left/right!

The silly thing is, that when I swim one-arm fly I do a sequence of some 4 strokes inhaling to my (FS happy) right side - then switch across to another 4 inhaling to my (FS less-happy) left side.  The difference in doing this bilateral breathing with the undulatory body action, is that the legs are kept together - so they don't splay out when attempting to breathe on the "FS less happy" side! So that can be rated as a success - but even doing this for a couple of lengths, I still have that residual feeling, that I just prefer inhaling to my right, and it's just that bit more awkward doing it to the left!

Swooping along with one Agility paddle this morning, it became apparent that even the slightest head lift to breathe made the legs drop.

This is not new news but the obvious lesson is that we need to make a very big effort indeed to keep one goggle in the water whilst breathing and to be looking backwards a bit.

The Catch-22 situation is that until you can swim fast, you don,t make a bow wave in which to breathe, so you are obliged to lift the head to breathe which then drops the legs and slows you down!

cottmiler wrote:... the obvious lesson is that we need to make a very big effort indeed to keep one goggle in the water whilst breathing and to be looking backwards a bit.
The Catch-22 situation is that until you can swim fast, you don,t make a bow wave in which to breathe, so you are obliged to lift the head to breathe which then drops the legs and slows you down!

Hi "cott..."!

    Think  my extract above from your last post, is applicable to any FS efforts.  Yesterday I thought it would be helpful to try the FS equivalent of one-arm fly - just FS stroking with one arm always inhaling to my "less happy" side (or rather trying to!) - result AWFUL!  Due to little or no propulsion from the leg action (Um! - leg propulsion what's that?), lying very low in the water anyway - I found it rather difficult to get air.  The body's undulatory action (getting forward movement from the dolphin kick upbeats as well as the the downbeats) in the one-arm fly is leisurely, but I get to the pool end wall eventually (passed by adjacent breast-strokers!)  But in FS, without a bit of propulsion from my little flutter kick, it's clear am wasting time, UNLESS I get those fins mentioned before.

  On going back to normal FS with inhalation on every 3rd arm stroke - I made a conscious effort to keep the legs fairly close together (while doing what I call my little flutter kicking!) - and that eliminated the problem that sometimes occurred of the legs splaying as I roll for air on my "less happy" side, with a foot touching the pool floor (only 4ft down!).  The "flippers" should make a world of difference - so much easier to access air (due to having a bit of bow wave and helping to keep higher in the water) on my "less happy side" when on the tum.

  I did see in a video clip on flutter kicking, a chap demonstrating the difference between flutter kicking with toes pointed compared with the kicking done by those with semi-inflexible ankles (he kept his insteps at approx 90 degrees to his shins - and moved beautifully - BACKWARDS!) That's me, I reckon - the trouble is attempting to point the toes is a bit painful with arthritic bones in the insteps - I hope that doesn't pose a problem when I try fins!

Impatient! I don't want to wait till Santa brings me some fins - so have just ordered some "Cressi Light Swim Fins" (Hooray for "Amazon"!), after reading user's feedback comments.

I went for another session yesterday (earlier than my usual time, due to the need to do other things), with some trepidation 'cos my pool entry time coincided with one of the club's "Aqua" sessions, with some 30 bods bouncing around in the un-roped area to shouted instructions over the blaring background music .  I was lucky that there was no-one else in the single "serious swimmers" lane so I really relaxed and enjoyed what I did - although skipping some things on my normal "to-do" list.  All the vigorous bouncing around by the "Aqua" bods caused a bit of wave action - but not bad 'cos the lane rope's plastic "bib-bobs" damped-down much of the turbulence - so I didn't get an unexpected mouthful of water instead of air.

The fins arrived yesterday and I tried them on to check my selected size was OK - yes good fit! - But, as I looked down at the big fairly stiff blades (they were certainly not "floppy") I realized "Something has got to change, or else with these on, I really will go backwards due to my inflexible ankles!".

As an  FS mainly "front-ender", my current leg action just provides balance and a bit of "push" when giving a decent kick to offset pushing drag as each arm enters the water.  At other times the legs contribute "next to nothing" towards propulsion.  Have been aware for a long time of what one ought to do - but actually doing it has been a different matter!  Was conscious of the fact that, during flutter kicking, elites did not bring their thighs much in front of the torso line, and that some used quite dramatic knee bends (that had an angle of 45-60 degrees behind the level of the thigh) at the transition from kick upbeats to downbeats - so as to get as much of the feet insteps as possible, facing in a backward direction - even if only for a short instant before starting the downbeats.

 With one of the more leisurely FS variants I do, I have been trying to get my feet breaking the surface on the transition from upbeat/downbeat - listening/sensing for surface disturbance, so that my downbeats might be more effective (shades of "SolarEnergy"'s old tip, to "Tap ones feet on the surface".  Also, from experience I know that the fly stroke major kick upbeat does contribute to forward movement - I wonder if the single leg upbeat in FS flutter kicking makes any contribution, by squeezing a narrowing wedge of water backwards?).   Yet some apparently quite decent swimmers seem able to get propulsion by casually waving their almost straight legs up/down, with a small extent between the feet at max leg separation - how baffling to bods like me. The answer to that must be, that such swimmers have very flexible feet/ankles.

Spent a lot of time studying Sheila Taormina's "Swim Speed Strokes" last night, on the business of FS flutter kicking.  I hope I've "taken to heart" the main points I need to watch out for.  Not to bend the lower leg back behind the thigh until the recovering straight leg, moving back up to the surface, has passed the level of the hips (to minimize the "leg curl back" fault).  It seems to me that the action of the kick upbeat is a "rebound action" starting with a conscious kick, back/up to start the leg recovery - and that (as in fly stroke) the downbeat starts by throwing the thigh forwards slightly - making sure to straighten the leg as it passes the hips.  Well I hope I get it right, when I practice it with the fins on tomorrow!

My wife did purse her lips and ask an awkward question - will I get "told off" for wearing fins in the pool?! Have never seen anyone using fins in the pool I use!  The blades do have a latex surround at their edges - to minimize the risk of possible injury to any swimmer getting too close to the feet waving around.

Tried the swim fins yesterday = Disaster! (They are now packed up ready for return to Amazon!) During my usual 60 min sessions I do quite a few different things on my "to-do" list.  Some 60%-75% necessitating me to stand by the end wall for 30secs (plus! ) having a "breather" - and working out what I ought to do next (and better!) - before continuing.  So I need to stand up for some 2 dozen times during a session.

When I sat on the widening-fancy steps (which have support rails on each side) at the pool entrance, to put the fins on, I had no idea what was about to happen!   I stepped down into the deeper water - and my feet shot from under me, there was no way that I could stand up in that 4ft+ uniform depth water - it was like standing on a surface slippery as ice!   I flutter kicked on my back to the end wall - more "uncomfortable" - (thinking I would have little opportunity for any rest at all - just keep swimming all the time) - than I had ever been since my days of learning to swim at 21.  I tried to stand up again - no go - so got out  (after a major struggle "inching" my way along to reach the end of pool conventional ladder) - and bid farewell to my attempts at using those fins!

The reason for the underside of the fins poor contact with the pool floor was apparent on examination.  The undersides had 2 ridges (rather like car window ice scrapers) extending from the underside of the foot pocket, diminishing in height until the ridges merged with with the flatter toe end of the fins.  No wonder it was difficult, or next to impossible in my case, to keep ones balance while standing on the "ice-scraper" edges.  Let's face it - swim fins are meant to be used while swimming - not standing or tramping around! I don't suppose for one moment that the floor of the DWfitness club 20m leisure pool I use is much different from that of other pools.  Ah well, that was another idea that crashed out!

I bet you are “as cross as a frog in a sock” mate!

Hi "cott.." - hadn't heard that expression before - but yup! Life has a way of dishing up disappointments - but we just get on and live (somehow! ). That reminds me of the old war-time ITMA radio program ("steam" radio - wots that???) with it's office-cleaner "Mrs Mop" character's catch phrases "Can-I-'do'-you-now-Sir?" and "It's be'in so cheerful wot keeps me go'in!" both delivered in a very mournful tone.

Think the way ahead for me when swimming FS, is to concentrate on relaxing and trading-off minimal expenditure of effort against "some"( ) satisfying forward movement.  That means my old ideas of using an almost continuous arm action (dropping the lead arm down to a catch as the rear arm exits the water - i.e. non-FQS) have long been put aside - and the inclusion of a glide has become more acceptable to me! I suppose it's just a psychological quirk - but I find swimming FS close by the pool side-wall, and inhaling with my face just a matter of inches away from the wall, more "reassuring"(?) than inhaling with the face turned to the un-roped side (which is just an almost featureless blur to me, with my poor sight).

Obviously the slipping was an insurmountable problem for you.

Bregor struggled at first with his Maru fins as he too has “acute angled” feet and shins but with practise on his back, he mastered them. He suffered swimming backwards and sore legs and cramp. But it cured his breastroke leg doing the crawl.

Mrs Cott is doing a bit with her Aquaspere fins here in the Swan river. These have on open heel and may not slip in a pool. Her leg beat is improving in accuracy. She is not fully happy yet though.

Learning any new physical skill takes a bit (lot) of pain and much perseverance at first.

Last night I cut 50mm off my big sea fins to make them more like the shorter Maru ones I have in England. The little bit of fin swimming I have done here has massively improved my stroke I believe.

We have been swimming at Claremont Pool alongside Paul Newsome,s squads twice and going again today. His Movember charity mustache will have gone. It was scruffy.

cottmiler wrote:Obviously the slipping was an insurmountable problem for you.

Bregor struggled at first with his Maru fins as he too has “acute angled” feet and shins but with practise on his back, he mastered them.  He suffered swimming backwards and sore legs and cramp.  But it cured his breastroke leg doing the crawl.

Mrs Cott is doing a bit with her Aquaspere fins here in the Swan river.  These have on open heel and may not slip in a pool.  Her leg beat is improving in accuracy.  She is not fully happy yet though...

Hi "cott..."!

I haven't totally discarded the idea of using swim fins to improve flutter kicking  - I just have to find some that have non-slip contact with pool floors, so muggins can have his little rests standing in the 4ft-ish deep water at the pool end wall!  I've scanned what seems to be the info with the more popular ones, but the feedback comments don't mention any "floor-slip" problem - and the photos only show the top view so it leaves one guessing what the undersides are like and pool floor "contactability". I guess it's what I said in my Amazon review when sending the Cressi ones back - "They are meant for swimming - not standing up and tromping around the pool!".  I mentioned "tromping" in my review, because my poor sight and inability to get decent (strong enough -16 dioptres!) prescription goggles - means that on initial entry to the pool I cautiously walk the pool length (*), because I can't see if am in someone's already chosen "swim line" until am some 4ft from them (just a shadowy featureless shape approaching!) - and certainly can't see the end wall until am about that same distance away from it! The problem with short-sightedness is that things are so badly out-of-focus - although they may actually be there - they don't appear to exist! So it would be most  inconsiderate of me to plunge into the water and swim ahead, regardless of others!
 
Did "Bregor" have any "floor-slip" difficulty with his Maru fins?

Re : Your wife's use of the Aquasphere open heel ones (so at least one's heel would make contact with the floor and reduce any "floor-slip" problem).  But I don't fancy that idea much, because I had some open-heel ones when in my 20s - and seem to remember the heel band rubbed the back of my heels quite badly, and were quickly discarded!

(* To make life "easier" I try/hope to swim next to the adjacent lane rope, which being quite near to me, I can then see sufficiently well.  But it doesn't always work out as I hope if someone has "bagged " my favourite position.  So I swim in any available part of the un-roped area, hoping the bod by the lane rope will get out after a while.   As a check - since can only see about 4ft with some degree of clarity - I do "tromp" another length occasionally, to see if the bod has got out of the pool and my favourite place is now free! )

Today Mrs Cott has found the Aquasphere floaty ones difficult to use since they float too high in the river estaury water. They flap air. Not so hard to use in the pool owing to denser water.

We cut 50mm off her sea fins and she has happily swum 4x50m in the river with them today. I did 1600 m with my trimmed sea fins.

Some pools have glazed tile bottoms and some have rough skimmed concrete. Obviously the former are very dangerous even with bare feet. Bregor is happy enough but I probably warned him to stand VERY carefully in the pool when he dons them.

cottmiler wrote:...Some pools have glazed tile bottoms and some have rough skimmed concrete.  Obviously the former are very dangerous even with bare feet.  Bregor is happy enough but I probably warned him to stand VERY carefully in the pool when he dons them.

Expect I shall remain with the DWfitness club pool I use, for the rest of my "swim life"! Although I have over the years, used pools with a variety of pool bottoms - from little mosaic glazed tiles to rough concrete bottoms.

The following stuff is totally wrong - as will explain in my next post on page 2. Most of the DWfitness pools (judging by photos of their other places) seem to have the same floor style, rectangles of alternating light/dark blue, each of size 2.5mx1.25m, with the longer dimension parallel with the side walls - so there are 8 such "tiles" to each 20m length. Reckon it's just a smooth concrete floor - and some very skilful colouring has been done - with the same colour scheme continuing on the side/end walls. I can't see any evidence of a physical join between the coloured "tiles", so I guess the floor is really just one expanse of concrete.