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1h fluttter kicking

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Post by cottmiler Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:07 pm

Can you do this sprinter?

Vertical flutter kick in the deep end:

https://youtu.be/cMF-CQKeFyo

Naturally, I cannot. I need to practice.

cottmiler

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Post by Sprinter Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:41 pm

I did vertical kicking, for quite some time, but I stopped doing it: I found it misleading. It's the problem with all these drills, which are not the real thing itself: instead of getting the feedback by reality, by the times you are swimming, you are entering into a beauty contest, where some judges set the rules (and I don't believe in these rules).

Clearly I never saw any benefits. And vertical kicking is *easier* when doing big kicks -- you are not swimming, and so there is no disruption of the swimming by the kicks. You can then put some safeguards into place against this -- but as a single swimmer, can you really do this? And then, whats the point?? I want to work with reality, not with rules.

Sprinter

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Post by Sprinter Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:06 pm

Today my (short) session in the 50m pool.

This time, I directly started with the 8x50m kicking, and that worked very well. I think the stretching and lengthening of the whole body is very important for the kick (and the whole stroke), and with each unit (I combine two 50m's into one unit) I naturally felt the legs and the feet getting longer, and more flexible, and getting into a better, tighter, higher streamline with the arms.
I started with 2*50m each in 84s, and ended with 2*64s.

Then I directly went to the 50m's full stroke. First 0.9s/stroke. And I immediately started with good body position, as set up by the kicking, it felt very good, and I did 6x50m with 44s -> 42s. Then I changed to 0.8s/stroke, and did 1x40s, and 1x39s.
With that a was satisfied for today. I didn't restrict the interval times, but if I feel some progress happened, then I don't need this.

This beautiful lengthening, and aligning your body flat under the surface, I believe you can only do with the (proper) snorkel (the powerbreather one -- everything is stable). A kickboard will not allow you to get into the natural body position yourself. The *young* *clubswimmer* likely doesn't need this, is flexible enough, but for the rest it seems to me that kickboard or interrupting the flow with going up for breathing doesn't allow to develop the good body line.

I noticed many times that with the full (front crawl) stroke, one can easily start contorted, in all directions -- and once you entered the length like that, it's very hard to correct. You feel that something isn't right, and you swim slow, but very hard to do something about it. Possibly by going hard and fast, you can overcome the contortions, but that takes a lot of effort.

When you kick with the board, there is nothing to help you with the body position. If you need to go up for breathing with the kicking, then after a breath likely everything is lost (it's just too hard then to concentrate, but one just has the aim to survive).

Right from the push-off your position needs to be right (once the position is lost, it's very hard to correct that). Much easier (and more efficient) for the late starter to stay flat here (not going deep!). After the 8x50m kicking, with its continuous lengthening, the biggest hurdle was taken, the strong consistent kicking, directly below the surface, was automatically there, and one could fully concentrate on the pull. I also felt the great effect to start with the arms in a tight streamline as possible -- again something that stays with you for the whole length (if you do not destroy it with willful rotations).

Sprinter

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Post by Sprinter Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:25 pm

Just to add: over the last three months, I always started these 50m-pool-sessions with the full-stroke lengths, since I wanted to "have it done". And I often did swim rather badly. The reason was likely the contortions, with your arms and legs bent downwards --- and my method to overcome this, even when just swimming full stroke, is to typically only swim 25m's, with a certain concentration on the kicking (or even first half-length only kicking), and/or to swim faster, which means a greater effort to uncurl the whole body --- this wasn't applied here, only doing relatively slow full-stroke swimming, and thus nothing improved during these lengths (if it's not a day where you are fit and agile).

Now I know that was a mistake, and will start these sessions with proper kicking.

Sprinter

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Post by Sprinter Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:22 pm

Today my weekly 1h kicking (in the 25m pool).

Did the target 1900m, in total 65min. Last 400m the leading 25m's in 32s -> 27s. Everything felt kind of okay. I definitely observed that with that kind of endurance swimming, proper technique is not achieved, which here means going full streamline. At least for the final fast lengths I did go full streamline (that feels much better, and goes well with a faster kick), and for the rest hopefully I can continuously improve it a bit.

My current idea is that I extend the total length to 2000m, and then I go more intensive (increasing the speed -- at least until 2000m in 60min is achieved).

Today was the first day of open swimming, and so instead of one big lane there were two lanes now -- so at every turn I saved a bit, since I didn't need to move to the adjacent lane.

So well, at least in that mixed club/hotel pool the lockdown had its advantages: a stable setting, your lane was kind of safe. Today it felt, like in the olden days, that every second (when you are not looking) a zombie (or several!) could enter the lane and block it forever --- only the four magical letters "f a s t", written on a small sign at the end of the lane, stopped that from happening (for now). Fortunately with my kicking I am not that fast (yet!); before the lockdowns I thus used that pool mostly for kicking.

Sprinter

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Post by Sprinter Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:28 am

2 days ago in the 50m pool (now more time available): this time I did 5 x 200m, each 100m broken in first 2 * 50m kicking, each in 72s, rest "as needed", and then 2 * 50m front crawl, each in <= 45s, with 20s rest between the two 50m's.

That felt nice.

Sprinter

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Post by Sprinter Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:36 am

Yesterday the 1h kicking: did, as planned 1950m, in total 68min.
Last 450m as 9 * 50m, each first 25m in 30s -> 27s.

Doing the 25m in 30s or faster, the body feels like a unit, where each body part has its natural place, and knows what to do. Contrary to that, for the slower lengths, the body splits clearly into three parts, arms, torso, legs, where for the arms one thinks "shall I pull them higher?", for the torso one might pull the core a bit closer to the surface (or not -- rather unclear), and for the legs the target is to be as long as possible, with constantly pointed and inwards rotates feet. For the faster lengths, the body seems to transform automatically into a rocket.

Next time I do 2000m, in <= 70min, and then the goal shall be to reduce the total time to <= 60min.

Sprinter

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Post by cottmiler Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:25 am

We are in a hotel with a small pool but which isgood enough to practise things.

Before I went to the pool Istood sideways in the mirror to see how streamlined my head was along the body line and realised that the head was jutting forward.

Doing the 6-1-6 drill which involves kicking on the side, I recalled SA,s aka smootharnie,s reccomendation to "grow the monkey bump" which means that you pull you head back to stop it jutting forward. This brings the head in line with the body and makes you more streamlined. That means that each painful kick moves you forward a teeny bit more!




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Post by Sprinter Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:06 pm

I consider the position of the arms most important for the streamline: pulling them as high as possible (with straight arms, in typical streamline position, thumbs interlocked). Then the head goes just inbetween.

If one only does shorter "sprints", then this can be done fully. But if doing longer sets, then one needs to compromise.

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Post by cottmiler Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:09 pm

Today timed myself over 25 m flutter kick on front - 55 sec which is 5 sec quicker than a while ago!

Doing dolphin kick on front, arms front, time was 50 sec!

Since I have been doing a lot of dolphin kick in order to get the butterfly working, my legs have improved.

There is a coach on youtube:

https://youtu.be/z1H8FbySvvs

who describes the whip like foot action commencing from the head nod. I suspect this applies to flutter kick too.

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Post by Sprinter Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:34 pm

The video you linked "Easiest Freestyle Kicking Technique - Never Sink Your Legs Again - DIY" is about the flutter kick, not dolphin kick. And, fortunately, no "head nod" is mentioned for the flutter kick -- I believe that would be gigantic mistake. The task is to DECOUPLE, not to create artificial coupling.
The linked video seems okay to me.

Over the last 6 months or so I also made big progress with the dolphin kick -- this came automatically from the improvements in the flutter kicking. There was also a bigger improvement waiting to get out, waiting to come free. I could feel it, something was developing, but I didn't know what. And then I learned it, by watching a go-swim video with an olympic british athlete, but not in the way it was intended: namely I clearly realised that the athlete didn't do anything of that whole-body stuff, but, with a natural, *independent* rhythm, was just pulling the feet towards the torso and then did a two-leg flutter kick. That was it! That was what I was starting to do myself.

Since then finally the dolphin kick works well and easy. Before that I believed in that whole-body stuff, that you needed to do something with your hips and the "whole body", and I basically didn't move. Now I can 25m dolphin kick under water (in 2m water depth) in around 30s. And the butterfly works much better now. Just a somewhat independent two-legged slow flutter kick, with a big knee-bend (which of course for the real flutter kick you don't do). Forget about the hips, the chest, the head!

I believe that that whole-body *nonsense* was originally just ment for the developed athlete. It is the ICING ON THE CAKE, for the athlete who already does the basic isolated movement. But then it caught on, and was inappropriately applied, to the various forms of developing swimmers. Since it sounds right, you wanna do "wholesome movements" (be in sync, in harmony, ... be a good citizen), not doing bad "isolated movements" (that's selfish, and doesn't connect to Mother Earth).

I definitely believe that for the flutter kicking, the legs must work in isolation, there shouldn't be any connection to the upper body. Due to the slower and bigger butterfly, there is of course a coupling, but that'll come automatically, just let it happen, don't force it. Most adults will have anyway a much reduced mobility in the chest.

I actually was about to write my butterfly experiences. For many years I believed I needed to do something with the hips, and the dolpin kick was a disaster -- ha, liberation now! (The hips will just follow naturally the main movement --- and the propulsion is created, solely, by the feet, nothing else!)

Addendum: The front crawl I mean is a rather competitive fast front crawl. But the slower you go, the more there will be coupling forces.
Concerning the dolphin stroke, I am also only thinking about a rather fast reasonably competitive form (flat on top of the water), not about that form of perhaps called long-distance butterfly with its big undulating movement (a big up-and-down).

Sprinter

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Post by Sprinter Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:02 pm

That go-swim video shows James Guy, and the link is
https://www.goswim.tv/lessons/2595-butterfly-full-body
for those who have access.

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Post by Sprinter Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:28 pm

Just to add to my butterfly experiences: today I did one 50m butterfly (the second ever, I believe; in the 50m pool, in the middle of the lane --- that's nicest!) in 56s, and it felt natural and nice (relatively  Wink ), throughout the whole length. Not forcing foreign actions on the body ("MUST do something with the hips" or "MUST go down and up"), but just concentrating on what really counts, the pull with the hands and the kick with the feet, and the rest of the body just follows.

The video cited by Cottmiller was actually one of the few I've seen which mentions the NUMBER ONE of swimming, the PROPULSION! That seems to be a big tabu at least in the swimming videos. One talks about all kind of small details, but the most important thing in swimming, the propulsion, is typically only ever mentioned by mystical proxies, like "grab the water" (there is nothing to grab!). While it is completely trivial: the propulsion comes solely from pushing water backwards, with the hands and the feet. It seems to me that the basic education of a swimmer happens completely subconsciously (and thus 99.9%, say, of all young swimmers never achieve anything), and that's just about providing propulsion, by proper muscle action. Drag and refinements come later. But the adult swimmer (late starter) is apparently supposed to completely skip learning the propulsion, and directly goes into refinement mode.

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