USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

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USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:20 pm

Can anybody modify the USRPT ststem for the distances over 1.5K, especially for 3K and 5K?

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:00 am

My question has not been answered yet! So that I decided to find out something.

Problem: USRPT doesnt refer to the distances over 1.5K. I didnt want to send email and ask Brent Rushall.

IMHO, for the 3K competition the weekly workout program should be like the below:
(The target pace for the 3K and 5K is 1:20/100m and training 5 days a week in a 25m pool)

As a start point:
Day1:   8x400m (@20)
Day2: 10x300m (@20)
Day3: 15x200m (@20)
Day4: 20x150m (@19)
Day5: 30x100m (@19)

@20 means: for 1:20 pace set 20 seconds on tempo trainer mode2, so that should pass each 25m sub 20 seconds. For example while doing 400m @20 if you fail at 250m, stop and rest 20 seconds(1 beep/lap period) then continue(try to do) the repetition. If you fail 3 times in a repetition or in the whole set, stop and rest for a couple of minutes then try to complete the set. Also the rest between the repetitions is the same with the lap time(@20).

The week starts with longer repetitions then gradually repetition distances decrease, because each day you need to recover more and more. After 5 days rest for 2 days and repeat the workout cycle again. If you improve(i.e from @20 to @19), then revise your target paces to upper level (from @20 to @19). On the other hand if you fall back, then revise your target paces to lower level(ie from @20 to @21).

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by s.sciame on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:41 pm

Hi NC, fortunately someone still keeps the forum alive! Smile I often wondered about your question, but actually the only swimmer I know who successfully applies USRPT for longer than 1.5k distances is you. I think your current sessions (75's, 50's and 25's with shorter intervals and no failures) are already a good customization of USRPT. The framework above (8x400, 10x300 etc) makes sense as well, though it looks less "ultra-short" and more like aerobic sets. In the end I guess the longer the race distance, the more USRPT and aerobic training tend to converge. This could be one reason why Brent Rushall didn't extend his method to longer than 1.5k distances (another reason could be that he only cares about pool swimming).

Salvo

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:03 am

Today's workout with my modified USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K:

31.01.2017 (SCM - 4000m)

Set(Average 100m pace test)
4x100m freestyle with 70% effort, Rest:10" (average 1:23)

Decision: Tempo trainer mode2 was set to 21 seconds for each 25m.

Main Set:
8x400m freestyle (tempo trainer mode2 @21 seconds - 1:24/100m pace - SPL:16-17) Rest:@21

300m drills

Sprint Set:
4x25m freestyle max speed, int:35" (SPL:16-17, average:15")

Notes: In the main set I could hold the 1:24 pace up to 250m then rest for one beep(21 seconds) and completed the repetitions. In the last 3 repetitions I didnt fail at all. When I complete this set with no fails I will challenge the 1:20 pace for the same set.

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:44 am

Finally Prof Dr. Brent Rushall responded to my question!  

Hope it will be helpul for the USRPT fans like Salvo and I Very Happy
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Emrah:

Thank you for your email. I am sorry it has taken so long for me to reply but the backlog of my email-inquiries is such that it takes at least two months for me to get to a specific communication.

I hesitate to answer specific-training questions without knowing any factors that exist to make a particular situation unique. So, the best I can do is offer some general long-distance training principles.

Some Considerations for Training for Long-distance Swimming Races

1. Only train in a long-course pool.

2. The major training repetition-distance should be 100 m. Occasional attempts at 150 m repetitions should be tried.

3. All rest periods should be 20 seconds or less.

4. The major pace for long-distance training should be 1500 m long-course pool pace. This is because pool-swimming is faster than open-water swimming and so the energy use in a pool will be close to that of slower continuous swimming in open water.

5. All sets should be completed to failure.

6. Sets should be of three forms.

6a. As an individual swimmer completing 100 m repetitions at 1500 LCm pace with 20 seconds rest. One of these should be performed each training session.

6b. Two swimmers in the same lane performing at the race-pace of the fastest swimmer who will lead for both lengths in the repetitions. The second swimmer should learn to draft or practice drafting off the faster swimmer for the complete set.

6c. If two swimmers are of the same performance standard, then alternate the lead position each repetition across the set.

6d. If two swimmers are of the same performance standard, then alternate the lead position at each turn so that the trailing swimmer in the first length has to accelerate and pass the original lead-swimmer early in the second length. The original lead-swimmer should then draft off the new lead-swimmer.

7. At least every other training session, one USRPT set over 50 m repetitions should be performed at 400 m pool race-pace. This is to practice going out with the lead swimmers at the start of an open-water race.

8. At least once per week perform a continuous swim over the long-race distance. If that can be done in a lake or surf, then the better. One in every three such long-swims should be in a long-course pool as a time-trial to judge improvement or tiredness.

9. Swimmers should be taught the skills of reacting to another swimmer's dirty tactics (e.g., pulling on a leg or arm, pulling on a swimsuit, being hit by the swimmer, etc.).

10. The most valuable index of long-distance training is the total amount of successful race-pace swimming completed over each week of training. When the distance becomes static or diminishes over two weeks, the swimmer most probably should experience a "fewer-training sessions week" (a "recovery week"). This is based on the assumption that the failure to improve is due to accumulated fatigue and/or insufficient recovery across the previous weeks. If illness or work/school causes fewer sessions to be completed, they should be treated as "recovery weeks".

11. All other features of USRPT should be followed, particularly peaking for important competitions.

12. After a full-out competitive effort in a long-distance race, 48 hours of recovery (usually without any swimming) should be considered.

13. Outstanding long-distance swimming performances will not be able to be achieved as often as short-distance pool-race performances. At most, important long-distance swimming races should be scheduled no more than one per month.

14. Long-distance swimmers will benefit greatly from improving swimming efficiency/technique. Therefore, the technique of swimming, particularly streamlining, maintaining a long and direct underwater pull, removing any inertial lags (i.e., overtaking-stroke lags), minimizing kicking, and performing a rhythmical balanced stroke should be emphasized.

I hope this is helpful.

Good luck in your swimming endeavors.

Brent S. Rushall, PhD, R.Psy.(ret)

Have you joined the USRPT International Association yet?
If not go to http://usrptia.org/index.htm and join.
Its free!



At 05:07 AM 6/19/2017, you wrote:

Hello Mr. Rushall,


I am an open water swimmer and a swimming coach from Istanbul/Turkey.


I have been applying the USRPT criteria and concepts since 2012 both in my own workouts and also introducing to my students.


If you allow, I would like to ask a question.


Is  USRPT suitable for the distances over 1.5K? If so, would you please write down an example set? For example while preparing for 3K race should we do still 30x100m or any other set like 30x150m or 20x200 , or any other alternative set?


Best Regards,

Emrah


Last edited by nightcrawler on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:47 am

It is really a historical information! Great advices, i liked his answer. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy cheers cheers cheers

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by cottmiler on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:51 am

I like his reply too and will study it later.

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:14 am

Need to read it 10 times with a silent mind!

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by cottmiler on Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:29 am

Inspired by this article I have just cracked off 1800 m non stop in the pool in a much more knowledgeable fashion than ever.

I could judge that if I didn,t balance on the top of the water then it was harder. I noticed the persistent poor right arm action with inaccurate EVF.

I noticed how sometimes I would be lazy and not keep the body rigid.

Also forgetting to keep one goggle under water when breathing.

However, knowledge is power!




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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by Mike A on Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:38 pm

Interesting. I might give the 100m intervals with 20s rests a try (actually they would be 100y intervals for me). It would roughly double my resting time compared to my current routine (550y intervals with 1 min rest), which could be a problem as I'm always short of time!

Usually I swim 2k, 2.5k or 3k as follows:-

2k = 4 x 550y, 3 x 1 min = 3 min rest
2.5k = 5 x 550y, 4 x 1 min = 4 min rest
3k = 6 x 550y, 5 x 1 min = 5 min rest

With Dr Rushall's plan it would be:-

2k = 22 x 100y, 21 x 20s = 7 min rest
2.5k = 27.5 x 100y, 27 x 20s = 9 min rest
3k = 33 x 100y, 32 x 20s = 10min 40s rest.
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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by Mike A on Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:58 am

I had a go at this today. I was in a 25m pool (with no wetsuit). Had a problem with my watch, which messed me up and I lost count. I intended to do 20x100m, but only did 18x100m (worked out afterwards by checking against start time).

My 1500m pace without wetsuit is 1:50/100m, so I set the Tempo Trainer to 2:10 for the interval starts. When my watch was still working, I was coming in on about 1:47 average, so I guess I was swimming slightly too fast.

For those who swim with this USRPT approach, what do you find is the best way to track times? Do you use 2 Tempo Trainers (one for pace and one for interval starts), or do you use the TT for pacing and the watch/wall-clock for rest timing, or the other way around?

Thanks
Mike
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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:09 pm

Tempo trainer is now just a souvenir in my bag, I claim that TT is not an efficient tool to improve the pace Very Happy  

If you take a look at my workouts, you will see that I am doing the USRPT sets at the end of my session, 20x25m or 24x25m or 40x25m or 48x25m, and since I am training for long distances my rests between the repetitions are not more than 5 seconds.

I am doing mostly 1500m or 2000m time trials in every session, during this sets I am using just a simple stopwatch to measure my time, I know the multiples of my 100m laps(i.e 1:20, 2:40, 4:00, etc...)  and gaze at the watch in every 200m right after the turn while streamlining to see my average pace.


Last edited by nightcrawler on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by Mike A on Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:49 pm

I find the TT really helpful for lap pacing (I never got on with it for stroke rate).

USRPT theory calls for consistent pace, so it's probably best if I use the TT for that, and the watch for rest intervals. Today I was conservative because it was my first attempt, but I had no problems holding the pace for 18x100m, so I should probably reduce the rest interval - I will try 15s next time and see how it goes. I did notice fatigue and poor form starting to creep in for the last few reps. That's not surprising, as I do usually notice a decline in form/speed after the first 1500m. It should be less so because of the frequent rests, but then I was swimming quite a bit faster than my usual 1500m pace.
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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:48 pm

You can also measure the laps with a simple 10 dollars stop watch instead of paying 50 dollars to TT. On the other hand my stop watch has a timer too, i can set it to i.e 20" per 25m and hear the beep in each turn, but in order not to limit myself i dint prefer this(red mist). Why should we keep ourselves from swimming faster? Smile

Also keep in mind that in the races they dont allow any watches, TTs or jewelleries, so that it is better not to addicted to these so much.

Much much better swimmers than us such as Johnny Weissmuller and Mark Spitz and Vladimir Salnikov hadnt used TT Smile

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by s.sciame on Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:02 pm

Great to have such a detailed reply by Dr Rushall on an issue many open water swimmers perhaps have wondered about!
Just a few comments while downloading the 5th season of Breaking Bad: I'm not sure I fully understood point #4 on the list, anyway it seems to me that the bulk of the training is very similar to what you would do to prepare a 1500. A 5k pace is supposed to be slower than a 1500 pace not only in open water, but also in the pool (eg Gregorio Paltrinieri swam 5k LCM in 51' averaging 1:02/100m while he holds 58s/100m on the 1500). However Dr Rushall suggests to train most of the time at 1500m pace.
He also insists on taking 20s rest during the reps (or less, but he never recommends to take 10s or less). I believe he considers those 20s always necessary and non negotiable regardless the distance you train for, maybe because he believes 20s are needed to refocus and restart with the best technique you have. Doing 100m reps with 20s rest to failure at 1500m pace (or slightly slower) means you need a lot of time budget to spend at the pool (as Mike has already noticed). But it makes sense in the end.

Salvo

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Re: USRPT system for the distances over 1.5K

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:51 pm

Dr Rushall is not a swimmer, cant know exactly and feel what we are feeling in the water,.On the other hand, science can not explain everything properly, so i believe that it is better to determine our own template which is not only suitable for our daily routine and pshychology(i.e i dont like 50m pool, it is colder and boring). As Coach Bowman says "Spinach is good but cannot be eaten everyday".

The main course for the success is training consistently with an increasing intensity. Trying hard for a distance and improving our tome for it also reflects other events positively.

Thus, just focusing on Rushall's recommendations is not enough, let me give a real life example. My friend Umut is a short distance swimmer, he is swimming around 2:18 200m free and 1:01 100m free. He had never trained for 800m and 1500m races, but last year he swam 10:15 and 20:12. I can give another example, another friend was swimming the 50m free 25" he was also swimming the 400m free 4:05. Same example is for Sun Yang, he also shined in 200m free as well as 1500m free. So as a result, we can say that being powerful and faster works in every distance.

One more determination; if you are targeting i.e 39 minutes for an open wayer 3k race, it will be better to target 36 minutes in the workouts, maybe Rushall is trying to mention this by offering that we should swim with 1500m pace, because race conditions generally affects our pace negatively, i experienced this in Budapest World Masters 3k ow race.

Rushall's recomendation on swimming in a 50m pool is really true, 25m pool creates at least 5% maybe up to 10% pace advantage, it is better to reach the target paces in a 50m pool if you are an open water swimmer.

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