A hybrid stroke drill?

by Don Wright Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:06 am

Not much activity on the forum at the 'mo' - so filling the gap with a few thoughts!

For variety, have been doing a couple of lengths at each session of the US Navy Seal's so-called "Combat Side Stroke" (which IMO should be called "Covert" 'cos it's meant to show minimal surface disturbance) - for at least 5 years now. Have never been really satisfied with it, 'cos it disregards everything we "old SS forum wallahs" learnt about the importance of getting a good high elbow catch. There was a comment recently I think on this forum about doing a "doggy paddle" drill - which (again!) I had tried yonks ago and discarded 'cos of the enormous "pushing drag" encountered when recovering an arm UW from back by the hip.

However, overcoming my "distaste" of that awful UW arm recovery and wanting to improve the arm action with that C.S.S. stroke - I tried some radical changes. By keeping prone on the "tum" and doing a a normal UW freestyle arm stroke with each arm, ending up with each stroking arm pushing back to the thigh - then doing a breast stroke kick as both arms recover UW back to the initial outstretched stream-lined position - I found it more helpful in monitoring the UW arm movements. It's basically just what Maglischo described as the "Long Doggy Paddle Drill" - except the arm recovery is done as the arms do the breast stroke kick - because weak flutter kickers like me, will otherwise come to a "dead stop" during the UW arm recovery - at least the breast stroke kick gives more impetus forwards to help cancel the drag!

As an aside - "Sprinter" has given us some very good info on flutter kicking recently in his posts. The only problem IMO, is that if one has very inflexible ankles/insteps that cannot be stretched more, such that the max "pointed toes" attitude still leaves an angle less than some 120 degrees between shin and instep - then any normal kick downbeat is going to "hook" water forwards unless the kick is quite shallow. Although "Sprinter" was "horrified" at my suggestion that the frontal area of the shin could play a part in leg propulsion during kick downbeats, if one accepts a moderate knee bend (increasing the slope of the lower leg relative to the surface - i.e. a bit more "backward-facing" at the transition from kick upbeat to downbeat) - for the few of us with ankle/instep flexibility problems, this seems to be the only apparent solution. (I am too ashamed to tell you just how long it takes me to do "on the side flutter kicking drill" for just one length! Embarassed

)

by Tom65 Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:44 am

Underwater recovery doesn't have to be a deal breaker. Got a couple of different strokes I do on my back that don't break the surface of the water other than my face and feet if I choose. Also do feet first on my back just using hands by my sides for propulsion, feet are half out of the water for balance and stomach bobs out slightly each stroke.

by Don Wright Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:42 am

Hi Tom!

Back near the start of the old SS forum, some bod talked what I think he called the "jellyfish stroke" - done on the back with an upside-down breast stroke kick and both arms doing a strong pull, out/around to the hips, from an outstretched arms start (as in English back stroke) then doing a gentle arm recovery from the hips, moving them upward keeping them fairly close to the body to minimize pushing drag. IMO YUK!

I want to move at a decent pace (not "dribble" along!) hence the "Long Doggy Paddle" using what we know to be a good arm action as in freestyle - the "hiccup" in recovering the arms back to the front is unfortunate - but bearable!

The Idea of the proper Seal's C.S.S. stroke, is that they must be able to do it in a war situation - encumbered with gear (explosive mines to stick on an enemy's ships hull for instance) - or make an unobserved landfall with gear - without drawing the attention of any possibly watching sniper.

What I found a great pity about the C.S.S. stroke (Google that if you're interested!) is that - starting on the tum, while flutter kicking stream-lined, one can use a high elbow catch as the first arm does it's pull through - but that arm stroke uses that pull to turn the body onto it's side (to facilitate inhalation) - pulling back to the hip, but the other arm stroke is done underneath the body (which is still on it's side), with the stroking arm in the same plane as the shoulders - so you can't get a very good catch without that arm going off-course in the direction the body is tilted - I did try doing a "sideways equivalent" of an EVF catch, with the deep forearm parallel with the surface far above - but found that unsatisfactory!

by Sprinter Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:57 pm

Don Wright wrote:
As an aside - "Sprinter" has given us some very good info on flutter kicking recently in his posts. The only problem IMO, is that if one has very inflexible ankles/insteps that cannot be stretched more, such that the max "pointed toes" attitude still leaves an angle less than some 120 degrees between shin and instep - then any normal kick downbeat is going to "hook" water forwards unless the kick is quite shallow. Although "Sprinter" was "horrified" at my suggestion that the frontal area of the shin could play a part in leg propulsion during kick downbeats, if one accepts a moderate knee bend (increasing the slope of the lower leg relative to the surface - i.e. a bit more "backward-facing" at the transition from kick upbeat to downbeat) - for the few of us with ankle/instep flexibility problems, this seems to be the only apparent solution. (I am too ashamed to tell you just how long it takes me to do "on the side flutter kicking drill" for just one length! )

I believe that you might suffer here from an illusion. If I fully dorsiflex my feet, then I basically don't move with flutter kick. But that seems very rare, that the foot is fixed in such a position. That you move, though with slow speed, will come in my opinion solely from your feet. It is only HINDERED by the typical floundering movements, which are believed to be "just introducing a moderate bending", but in reality are just, according to my observations in my pool, just helpless movements, bending IN THE HIPS. I guess that if you really straighten your legs, and bring the feet as close to the surface as possible, you will move faster (sure, pointing them as much as you can) -- given that you have some strength to drive them down with some reasonable power, and can bring them up again. That power might be missing, but hopefully you can gain it.

Otherwise, you might just forget about speed. In my pool I see absolutely horrible beasts in the pool, with unbelievable effort nearly not moving. BUT why not? They have their exercise. So I only try to help with a better swimming technique in case I see that the person is really interested in getting faster.

(As an aside, a really astounding case: I was doing, as usual after the swimming, my exercises. Watched, without my glasses (never in the pool), with one eye, some guy at the other end of that 25m pool. And I had the perfect illusion that guy would be swimming in a flume channel! I looked sharper, still there must be flume channel! He is stationary, but appears to be swimming. I approached that lane, and finally saw that he was actually moving, doing the 25m in 60s, which above the water looked quite reasonable, typical 30s / 25m: reasonable body position, high elbow recovery, reasonable breathing. But under the water ABSOLUTELY no power. Really an extreme case.)

Now, tell us, how long does it take you? Don't worry, it is how it is.

by Tom65 Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:21 am

Don Wright wrote:Hi Tom!

Back near the start of the old SS forum, some bod talked what I think he called the "jellyfish stroke" - done on the back with an upside-down breast stroke kick and both arms doing a strong pull, out/around to the hips, from an outstretched arms start (as in English back stroke) then doing a gentle arm recovery from the hips, moving them upward keeping them fairly close to the body to minimize pushing drag. IMO YUK!

I want to move at a decent pace (not "dribble" along!)!

I don't do the jelly fish but I do use that arm movement with a flutter kick. My flutter kick on it's own gives me a reasonable speed, add the arms (with underwater recovery) and I lap at about the same rate as the hack backstrokers and some of the freestyle lappers at my pool. Haven't ever timed it, probably a lowly 40 seconds per 25 metres, but it is, a no effort just because I can cruising stroke.

by Don Wright Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:35 am

Don Wright wrote:...I am too ashamed to tell you just how long it takes me to do "on the side flutter kicking drill"
for just one length!

Sprinter wrote:...Now, tell us, how long does it take you? Don't worry, it is how it is.

I'll time it properly at my next session Saturday. The last time I tried it, I roughly estimated it somewhere between 1-2 mins for just a 20m length! I've tried getting the lower legs well behind the torso line during kick upbeats. so that the darn feet don't "hook" water forward so much on the kick downbeats. Also I discovered that if I stand up after 5m or so (good job it's a uniform depth pool Smile

) and "slosh" myself horizontal again - for a few secs of course, I get the benefit of that sideways action and my flutter kicking progress seems reasonable - but of course the effect of that "slosh" soon wanes and I'm back to just "dribbling along" again. I always wear my buoyancy shorts now - so my legs must be up near the surface I reckon. So it's no wonder I class myself as an FS "front-ender"! Not much propulsion from the rear end - unless when on the tum doing 6-beat kicking and use a bit of knee bend in the leg action, then can feel water pressure on the insteps during kick downbeats (something I seldom otherwise experience). During that action, the feet seem to act a bit like paddles - that tells me that at some instant during the kick downbeats they are in an effective attitude! However because of the effectiveness of my arm action Rolling Eyes

possibly masking leg propulsion contribution, I may be deluding myself that the legs are making much of a useful contribution.

Timing my efforts over a series of lengths is not possible for me, I may swim some 30 or more lengths per session, but usually need a "pit-stop" after each FS length due to age(81)/fitness level - going slow does not seem to help me - so I do each FS length as fast as I can, then have a little rest. There is the fact that I can swim English backstroke (arms inactive, while legs kick and vice versa), and to a much lesser degree, back crawl continuously (arms/legs always "on the go"), without any rest. That suggests to me that it is all a matter of the relative "rate of expenditure of energy against respiration rate"- but that doesn't help me overcome my FS "hurdle" where arms/legs are always "on the go"!

Of the 6 or 7 FS "style variants" for which I do a couple of lengths each - the almost full arm catch-up style with 2-beat kicking (and a long rest for the lead arm as it waits for the stroking arm to approach) seems to consume the least energy and I can do those 2 lengths without a pause - the next easiest for me is, strangely, the 6-beat kicking with a knee bend and feet waving around like paddles - can also manage 2 lengths of that without a rest, but breathing becomes a bit fraught.

If you remember, you kindly tried in the past, to help me in many ways - front snorkel usage etc ...

(found the breathing tube a bit small for happy respiration so after a couple of continuous lengths, due possibly to the respiration "inadequacy" - the oxygenation of the blood to the muscles was not sufficient to "keep going" - had to give up towards the end of 3rd length, arms exhausted.) -

... to overcome that "hurdle" - but it's a lost cause I fear, when the heart seems to be trying to pound through the ribs and breathless due to exertion - it's time to "ease off" for a bit of rest!

BTW keeping the legs straight while flutter kicking on the side, gets me nowhere fast - am one of those bods who, yonks ago, went backwards when I used a kick-board when on the tum due to the feet "hooking" water forwards on kick downbeats! Shocked

I doubt very much that being floppy/saggy at the hips while flutter kicking is a cause of my problem - am keenly aware of that possible fault! Oh what a difficult/awkward bod I am!

P.S. To add to my "oldie" woes (it's all "down-hill" for some of us!), I've had to go to the doc about a lot of discomfort over nearly a month now, near the bottom right of the rib cage at the back, and also in my front right side. He's had one blood test result back and tells me my "liver function tests" were high, and now wants another test done - also an ultra-sound scan of my abdomen - might be a gall bladder problem (fairly common in old folk, I think).

by Don Wright Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:39 am

Tom65 wrote:... My flutter kick on it's own gives me a reasonable speed, add the arms (with underwater recovery) and I lap at about the same rate as the hack backstrokers and some of the freestyle lappers at my pool. Haven't ever timed it, probably a lowly 40 seconds per 25 metres, but it is, a no effort just because I can cruising stroke.

You're a lucky chap Tom (well you are a bit younger than me - everyone passes me now when walking as I limp along leaning on a stick! Smile

) - my flutter kick leg propulsion is very weak. Your time of 40 secs/25m works out at 1.6 secs/m. As I "divulge" in my reply to "Sprinter"s urging, following this post, my rate of flutter kicking on the side is only 6.2 secs/m to 7.7 secs/m - very much worse than I used to think. No wonder I prefer to minimize leg effort, and concentrate on arm action!

by Don Wright Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:49 pm

@"Sprinter"

Sprinter wrote:...Now, tell us, how long does it take you? Don't worry, it is how it is.

Well I timed my little efforts "flutter kicking on the side" today - much worse than I originally estimated!

Effort 1 - keeping the legs fairly straight with scarcely any knee bending, just keeping the feet within the "body shadow", looking ceiling-wards all the time for respiration, leisurely kicking rate (I can't do frenetic kicking now - hips/spine too arthritic). Time for 20m, 2'34", which works out at 7.7 secs/m - worse than dribbling along, almost snail-pace!

Effort 2 - deliberately throwing the thigh forward for each kick downbeat allowing the relaxed lower leg/foot to follow on out-of-phase - then doing the lower leg kick downbeat as the thigh returned to it's former position. Similar kick rate as for effort 1 and same respiration style. Time for 20m, 2'04'', which works out at 6.2 secs/m - i.e. not quite as bad as the straight leg effort, but definitely a snail-pace!

No wonder my favourite FS variant is one in which the legs are left idle, completely relaxed, and I substitute a quick vigorous downward flick of the hip on the same side as an entering arm as I roll towards it. Hopefully, that is similar to shaking the end of a loose rope lying on the ground, to send a wiggle along it!

I think the problem with the inflexible ankles/feet also spoils my efforts at doing the "body dolphin on the side at the surface" drill. My old "SwimFast" fly DVD shows that maestro Phelps travels quite a distance on each of his dolphin kicks (I know he has fantastically flexible ankles/feet) - but just like my efforts at flutter kicking on the side, progress doing that fly drill is at a snail pace! I could try doing a somewhat deeper knee bend as the thighs are thrown forwards, before the lower legs thrash down - to see if that gets the darned feet into a better attitude to make more progress. I do (sometimes! Rolling Eyes

) remember to part the knees a bit to get the insteps turned slightly outwards to get more effective pressure on the water during the lower leg kick down - but that doesn't seem to make much difference in my case.

by Sprinter Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:52 am

Don Wright wrote:
Effort 1 - keeping the legs fairly straight with scarcely any knee bending, just keeping the feet within the "body shadow", looking ceiling-wards all the time for respiration, leisurely kicking rate (I can't do frenetic kicking now - hips/spine too arthritic). Time for 20m, 2'34", which works out at 7.7 secs/m - worse than dribbling along, almost snail-pace!

From my little experience teaching older males flutter kicking, I know that it's actually not easy to do it. I told them "straight legs", and they thought so, but it took quite some time, trying again and again, until it was really done. And only then, finally, the better speed came.

It needs also a specific core strength, which likely needs to be developed.

Can you do kicking into the wall? Perhaps with a snorkel?

by s.sciame Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:31 am

Since you guys are talking about kicking I wanted to share my recent experience fwiw.

When I want to do a kick set every now and then (I can't say that I train my kick), I prefer using a snorkel instead of the kickboard. However, with a snorkel on and arms in streamlined positions, my legs are too close to the surface and I end up kicking air (no matter how straight I keep the legs). The result is an easy but very slow way to cross the pool.

If I deliberately assume a worse body position by looking forward to the far end of the pool (head still submerged and snorkel on), my legs sinks just a little bit to allow me to kick only water, DPK (distance per kick) improves and I instantly gain as much as 10s per 25m. Of course it's more tiring for the legs as well.

Finally, if I go further and raise the head above the water (ie remove the snorkel and grab a kickboard), the legs sink too much and I get slower again. So my sweet spot for kicking seems to be with head submerged but looking forward, which is also the same body position I like to assume for sprinting.

How about you? Do you experience something similar?

Salvo

by Don Wright Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:45 am

Sprinter wrote:...Can you do kicking into the wall? Perhaps with a snorkel?

Not keen to get the snorkel out again for straight leg kicking with hands on the end deck - but am resolved to start each session now with a timed length of flutter kicking - and I'll try it imagining I've got a rod tied to my legs - especially at the knees - from each hip to the ankle!

(After that is, I initially walk the pool length to make sure the way ahead is clear, or I need to choose another line of action to avoid others - since I can't see bods until about 5ft away from me, or the end wall when I enter at the steps end. Have "given up" on getting prescription goggles, can't get the -16 dioptre strength I really need, or anything approaching that. Tried some off-the-shelf "SWIMMI" ones at -12 dioptres - they send the rubber google part without lens inserts, and the lens inserts you've requested. But they leaked badly, so I just make do with a plain Cressi swim mask now - happily inadvertent collisions have been rare. Can see the pool floor tile markings OK!)

I did another "timed" length yesterday and was disappointed to see that although I had tried what I supposed was the more effective flutter kicking method, (as for effort 2 last time) with a bit of knee bending, - the result was 2'23". So the results are inconsistent - except for the fact whatever method I use - it's at snail pace! I did what I ought to have done for the earlier "timing" lengths of inhaling with head turned ceiling-wards, then looking sideways and exhaling into the water.

by Sprinter Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:09 am

s.sciame wrote:
When I want to do a kick set every now and then (I can't say that I train my kick), I prefer using a snorkel instead of the kickboard. However, with a snorkel on and arms in streamlined positions, my legs are too close to the surface and I end up kicking air (no matter how straight I keep the legs). The result is an easy but very slow way to cross the pool.

I use the snorkel myself (the modern form, with powerbreather). Coaches who know about sprinting are always alarmed by that, because of the inappropriate body position (they say). But once I show my use of it, they are at ease and have no further worries.

I guess that's due to the slight upward angle I (assume I) have.

It became only really clear to me with the 2 weeks one-to-one coaching in Mallorca beginning of August this year, that for good propulsion the legs need to seek deeper (standing) water; I had discussed this a bit at
https://theswimforum.palstani.com/t135-forearm-paddles#1904

Recently I obtained the feeling (ability I hope) that I have control over that -- it doesn't come absolutely easy but reasonably easy to either swim horizontally or with a slight upward angle, where the latter seems essential for kicking with propulsion (and seems to be the reason for emphasising the use of the kick board -- it's not a bug but a feature that the legs are pushed down a bit).
It seems that I don't need to manipulate my head position for that, but just thinking of this special, indeed good, feeling of propulsion from the kick, I get that slight upward feeling (which itself is nice -- as a sprinter).

Very strange, that NOW every coach I am talking to agrees on that as very important for a sprinter, but before nobody ever mentioned this to me! (Stop, except of the coach at the water flume in Tenerife 1 1/2 years ago, but since it didn't fit into the "general swimming wisdom" I didn't consider this further.)

by Sprinter Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:22 am

Don Wright wrote:
I did another "timed" length yesterday and was disappointed to see that although I had tried what I supposed was the more effective flutter kicking method, (as for effort 2 last time) with a bit of knee bending, - the result was 2'23". So the results are inconsistent - except for the fact whatever method I use - it's at snail pace! I did what I ought to have done for the earlier "timing" lengths of inhaling with head turned ceiling-wards, then looking sideways and exhaling into the water.

The inconsistency seems completely natural to me:
1. Your mental state differs, and sometimes you will kick harder, sometimes softer.
2. The state of your legs and attached muscles differ: sometimes they are tired, sometimes fresh, sometimes they are stiff, sometimes relaxed.

Point 1 is in my understanding the main reason that people think if they try something new, they can immediately get out something from it: everything will be basically the same (or worse), but they'll put more effort into it, and swim a bit faster. This is very hard to notice, since most swimmers most of the time don't swim at real maximum effort.

Point 2 might be the main reason for people experiencing specially good sessions, which they then falsely attribute to "having found the magic of swimming". Neck and legs especially for us males over, say, 50, seem to by typically very stiff, but not always the same.

by Don Wright Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:05 pm

Sprinter wrote:...The inconsistency seems completely natural to me:
1. Your mental state differs, and sometimes you will kick harder, sometimes softer.
2. The state of your legs and attached muscles differ: sometimes they are tired, sometimes fresh, sometimes they are stiff, sometimes relaxed.

Spot on! I shouldn't have been so disappointed - 'cos I had a disturbed night before the last effort, so must have been tired - and who can claim to kick at a standard rate time-wise, and with same energy outlay as on some previous occasion. Too many variables!

by Don Wright Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:08 pm

Think I'll call this mornings "on the side flutter kicking" timed 20m length the first of a series, using "Sprinter"'s recommend to keep the legs straight without any knee bending at all. In fact it was my best timed effort so far 1'45" (5.25 secs/m). OK I know that's still dribbling along at snail pace - but it was good for me!

I'll jot down the times on a calendar, and report back here after I've accumulated some 20 or so timings - that will take me a couple of months, at 3 swim sessions/week - which hopefully should show some gradual improvement. Until then I'll "go quiet" Zzzzzz! Smile

by Sprinter Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:52 am

Hi Don,

good to hear that you hopefully have some fun!

After those 20 timings or so, you might start introducing a SMALL bend.
The task is to absolutely keep the old movement of the straight legs, and superimpose the knee bend. That is, when the leg goes up, then additionally the knees are bending, and possibly the feet come out of the water. While when the legs go down, then additionally the knees are straightening, with hopefully a bit of force.

This is in my experience (own and others) non-trivial. It requires core and leg strength. When the leg goes up, then the danger with bending the knee is, that this can introduce a bending of the hips, actually preventing then the legs from going up! The correct way requires core strength. And when the leg goes down, then the danger is that the leg doesn't get straight. The correct way requires core strength and also leg strength.

If done wrongly, then we get that characteristic baby-movement of kicking back and forth, like breast-stroke, or walking/bicycling.

by Don Wright Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:11 am

Sprinter wrote:...After those 20 timings or so, you might start introducing a SMALL bend.
The task is to absolutely keep the old movement of the straight legs, and superimpose the knee bend. That is, when the leg goes up, then additionally the knees are bending, and possibly the feet come out of the water. While when the legs go down, then additionally the knees are straightening, with hopefully a bit of force.

[This suggests to me, that the upward leg action is a bit like swinging a leg back when standing on dryland - the action of the swing starts at the hip by throwing the thigh backwards, but the knee is allowed to bend - in continuing momemtum (inertia!) - and the lower leg continues on an upward path - so that as you say, the foot may come out of the water. But doesn't that invalidate the old idea, that one should recover the leg straight as it moves back up to the surface - to avoid the old "leg curl-back" fault, in which the back of the lower leg is, for a while, causing drag by pushing water forwards!?]

This is in my experience (own and others) non-trivial. It requires core and leg strength. When the leg goes up, then the danger with bending the knee is, that this can introduce a bending of the hips, actually preventing then the legs from going up! [I suppose this danger occurs because in walking, for instance, we think of moving the thigh forwards so the knee bend is followed by the lower leg moving forwards - resulting in the hip bend!?]The correct way requires core strength. And when the leg goes down, then the danger is that the leg doesn't get straight. The correct way requires core strength [Ummm! I'll have to see how things go - I've had bilateral hernia repairs done in the lower abdomen, and mesh (now a fixed part of me) is screwed to hip bones each side with "staples" to hold it in place just below the outer layer of flesh (so the surgeon doing the "key-hole" surgery said) - the result of doing too vigorous "sit-up" exercises!] and also leg strength.

If done wrongly, then we get that characteristic baby-movement of kicking back and forth, like breast-stroke, or walking/bicycling.

Well I wont worry about this for a couple of months, till I've accumulated a decent set of timings. In anticipation, I "dug" through my old statistics books to see how one can detect trends - - to see if there have been any real general improvements, rather than the odd good or bad value here and there!

For a while, I did try fairly rapid/shallow flutter kicking while on the tum, with arms outstretched. Yes, I got decent movement (for me anyway, I seemed to "zip along" for a few metres) - but I soon got exhausted and breathless so that soon dropped out of favour, and got on with other things on my "to-do" list!

Think I will alter my usual little "loping" FS variant, in which I spend more time rolled to my right with right arm outstretched and left arm paused by the left hip, elbow stuck out of the water for a short while, as I concentrate on flutter kicking, before a quick recovery of left arm, and a quick inhalation stroke with the right arm, giving plenty of momentum forwards - will do that kicking with straight legs in future. Your recommend seemed to work for the "on the side" effort - so will try to transfer that to "on the tum" kicking improvements!

I still have some misgivings over this "straight leg" business, due to being stuck on the idea of the "out-of phase" action of thigh and lower leg - when the thigh is thrown forwards (hip action), keeping the knee joint relaxed for a while, then the knee is straightened as the lower leg/foot drive strongly downwards, while the thigh moves back upwards - thinking that action provides an undulatory effect helping motion forwards. Yet SS always warned us in the past to "flutter kick with straight legs" - sad isn't it, some of us (me!) are obstinate and ignore good advice, until it catches up with us!

by Sprinter Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:39 am

Don Wright wrote:
[This suggests to me, that the upward leg action is a bit like swinging a leg back when standing on dryland - the action of the swing starts at the hip by throwing the thigh backwards, but the knee is allowed to bend - in continuing momemtum (inertia!) - and the lower leg continues on an upward path - so that as you say, the foot may come out of the water. But doesn't that invalidate the old idea, that one should recover the leg straight as it moves back up to the surface - to avoid the old "leg curl-back" fault, in which the back of the lower leg is, for a while, causing drag by pushing water forwards!?][/color]

Yes, the swinging-analogy is correct (also considering the relaxation), though one should be careful here -- likely bending only slightly, otherwise the hip bend will happen.

What do you mean with "old idea"?

Without a bend in the knee, you do not get the strong propulsion provided by the fast snapping down of the leg.

BUT, as I said, best to practice the basic movement, the straight leg, for a good time. Only in this way you can achieve it finally that the bending happens late, so to speak, so that you keep the general straight movement, and put the bend on top (superimpose it).

General remarks:

Regarding drag: without producing drag, no propulsion is possible with swimming!

And below a speed of, say, 1m / sec, drag plays only a small role, but getting the power applied to the water, THAT'S THE BUSINESS.
Concerning the flutter kick, I think that at low speeds, the weak propulsion has nothing to do with drag, but with NO POWER transferred to the water, due to bad mechanics.

In the swim camps by Holger Luening, everybody gets to experience hanging in the water of the flume channel moving with 2m / sec. The point is to demonstrate what a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT world this is, this professional fast swimming. And how ridiculous it is to transfer anything from that swimming to the amateur swimming, mostly happening with 1m / sec and below.

Don Wright wrote:
This is in my experience (own and others) non-trivial. It requires core and leg strength. When the leg goes up, then the danger with bending the knee is, that this can introduce a bending of the hips, actually preventing then the legs from going up! [I suppose this danger occurs because in walking, for instance, we think of moving the thigh forwards so the knee bend is followed by the lower leg moving forwards - resulting in the hip bend!?]

I just think that in walking you never move the leg back (up to the surface). So the flexibility is often not there.
The part of the movement you describe, is the forward movement of the leg (down to the ground of the pool), and there the swimming movement is only simulated on dry land by properly kicking a ball.

Don Wright wrote:
The correct way requires core strength. And when the leg goes down, then the danger is that the leg doesn't get straight. The correct way requires core strength [Ummm! I'll have to see how things go - I've had bilateral hernia repairs done in the lower abdomen, and mesh (now a fixed part of me) is screwed to hip bones each side with "staples" to hold it in place just below the outer layer of flesh (so the surgeon doing the "key-hole" surgery said) - the result of doing too vigorous "sit-up" exercises!] and also leg strength.

Relatively the swimming actions are still rather soft, not as hard as sit-ups for example. It's just to avoid the typical wobble which requires a special strength.

Don Wright wrote:
I still havesome misgivings over this "straight leg" business, due to being stuck on the idea of the "out-of phase" action of thigh and lower leg - when the thigh is thrown forwards (hip action), keeping the knee joint relaxed for a while, then the knee is straightened as the lower leg/foot drive strongly downwards, while the thigh moves back upwards - thinking that action provides an undulatory effect helping motion forwards. Yet SS always warned us in the past to "flutter kick with straight legs" - sad isn't it, some of us (me!) are obstinate and ignore good advice, until it catches up with us!

The snapping of the foot is finished when the leg movement down is finished. That yields the strong propulsion, the combination of movements (not contradictory movements, as you seem to suggest).

by Don Wright Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:58 am

Hi "Sprinter"!

Thank you for the clarification/correction. I'll do as you say and "hang-in", keeping to the straight leg flutter kicking for quite a long time ahead!

Am keen to see how best to deal with the results of my future efforts - as you have pointed out there will be quite a bit of ups/downs in the timings (some days better than others) - so the points on a "time series" plot may show quite a bit of vertical variation - but will be looking for any overall trend despite that scattering. Have looked at stuff on regression, dispersion, best fits and hypothesis testing etc, - that should keep my "noddle" busy for a while - will experiment first on other data to check out the validity of ideas - without, I hope, getting "lost" in the proverbial "Lies, damn lies, and statistics"!

by Sprinter Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:48 am

Other variables to control could be:
- feeling weak/normal/strong
- day of the week and time

Stiffness in the legs can cause a big slowdown in my experience, but that seems hard to measure.

A video of every effort would be best Shocked

The technique can change over time, without you noticing it.

by nightcrawler Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:37 am

Hybrid stoke types can be:

a) breathing in each 2 strokes but both arms have the same arm mechanic - leg mechanic for each leg can be same or different (one leg may do 2bk the other do 6bk or both have 2bk or 6bk).

b) breathing in each 2 strokes but one arm does windmill the other does high elbow recovery - - leg mechanic for each leg can be same or different (one leg may do 2bk the other do 6bk or both have 2bk or 6bk).

c) breathing in each 3 strokes but both arms have the same arm mechanic - leg mechanic for each leg can be same or different (one leg may do 2bk the other do 6bk or both have 2bk or 6bk).

d) breathing in each 3 strokes but the breathing-side's arm does windmill the other does high elbow recovery - leg mechanic for each leg can be same or different (one leg may do 2bk the other do 6bk or both have 2bk or 6bk).

In any case, hybrid stroke is not symmetrical so that I am against it, assymmetrical muscle development is not good come what may. If we choose hybrid stroke then it will better to apply it for the both sides (i.e breathing from left for the 1st 25m then from right for the other 25m, etc...).

by Don Wright Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:27 am

Sorry to break my intended period of silence guys - but maybe could do with a bit of advice over stream-lining etc! Am now 1/4 way through my little stint of doing a timed 20m length of "flutter kicking on the side" at each of 20 sessions, before I get down to my usual routine. Am glum that so far no "breakthroughs" have been attained - it would be really pleasing to get the time down to 1 minute. The "best"( Rolling Eyes

) time so far, has been 1'45", and the worst 2'01"!

Have noticed that my kicking rate seems to "drop off" when I inhale - can tell that as i return my head UW for exhalation and see that the passage backwards of the plastic "bobbles" on the adjacent lane rope have slowed down, as I (hopefully) move forwards. Laughing

The other point is, that my preferred arm arrangement is, of course to leave the upper arm resting on the hip, but leave the lower arm "dangling" near the lower hip - occasionally waving it gently around to act a bit like a rudder and help keep "on course" (or am I secretly hoping that action of waving the lower arm around will improve things!). So effectively, the first thing the water ahead meets is my "noddle", not exactly good stream-lining! So will try the old SS recommend of having the lower arm outstretched (ram-rod straight) to help "knife" ( Razz

) through the water - to see if that helps get the time down! Have tried that before, but not since keeping to straight-leg kicking.

As "Sprinter" pointed out earlier - efforts are really dependent on a lot of factors, so I must expect a lot of "ups and downs"! On most occasions, am quite glad when I see the ceiling lights above the "end of length" approaching, and am usually a bit breathless (i.e. looking forward to a little rest).

I could try "deeper kicking" but given the inflexible nature of my ankles/insteps - that doesn't seem to me a good idea! Or even perhaps putting more "oomph" into the kick downbeats (i.e. spatially forwards, since am on my side) ???

by Sprinter Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:37 pm

Don Wright wrote:Sorry to break my intended period of silence guys - but maybe could do with a bit of advice over stream-lining etc! Am now 1/4 way through my little stint of doing a timed 20m length of "flutter kicking on the side" at each of 20 sessions, before I get down to my usual routine. Am glum that so far no "breakthroughs" have been attained - it would be really pleasing to get the time down to 1 minute. The "best"( ) time so far, has been 1'45", and the worst 2'01"!

The legs need time (on the positive side, time works for them).

I guess one minute should be possible, but that might take, say, half a year.

Don Wright wrote:
Have noticed that my kicking rate seems to "drop off" when I inhale - can tell that as i return my head UW for exhalation and see that the passage backwards of the plastic "bobbles" on the adjacent lane rope have slowed down, as I (hopefully) move forwards.

One should definitely try to maintain a steady rhythm, but that's not easy.

Don Wright wrote:
The other point is, that my preferred arm arrangement is, of course to leave the upper arm resting on the hip, but leave the lower arm "dangling" near the lower hip - occasionally waving it gently around to act a bit like a rudder and help keep "on course" (or am I secretly hoping that action of waving the lower arm around will improve things!). So effectively, the first thing the water ahead meets is my "noddle", not exactly good stream-lining!

It's a typical kicking exercise, having the arms at the side. But especially for the integration with full stroke, the streamlined position of the arms is the standard.

Don Wright wrote:
So will try the old SS recommend of having the lower arm outstretched (ram-rod straight) to help "knife" ( ) through the water - to see if that helps get the time down! Have tried that before, but not since keeping to straight-leg kicking.

I imagine that due to the low speed, the difference is small.

Don Wright wrote:
As "Sprinter" pointed out earlier - efforts are really dependent on a lot of factors, so I must expect a lot of "ups and downs"! On most occasions, am quite glad when I see the ceiling lights above the "end of length" approaching, and am usually a bit breathless (i.e. looking forward to a little rest).

Hopefully fitness improves over time.

Don Wright wrote:
I could try "deeper kicking" but given the inflexible nature of my ankles/insteps - that doesn't seem to me a good idea! Or even perhaps putting more "oomph" into the kick downbeats (i.e. spatially forwards, since am on my side) ???

I think it's best to first concentrate on straight legs and a quite small kick, relaxed, with medium frequency and power. Later, once the basic movement is reasonably secure, you can go for more oomph.

by Don Wright Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:50 am

Thank you "Sprinter" for the helpful comments!

Yes, as you surmised - having the lower arm outstretched in a stream-lined attitude didn't do anything for time reduction. Am not too sure about your comment "Hopefully fitness improves over time." - sometimes it seems as if it's "all down hill!". Anyway I'll keep on with the straight leg flutter kicking efforts!

Am hoping this morning to make some changes to my hybrid drill - the mix of all UW "Long Doggy Paddle Drill" and US Navy C.S.S. with a breast stroke kick (since my flutter kicking is so weak, I would otherwise come to a halt when recovering both arms back from the hips).

I remember seeing an old clip of Popov doing a drill with FS arm action, but using fly dolphin body waggling. I remember that his body swayed left/right (due to the asynchronous arm action) - so it didn't look very good. However, for fun I'll try it again! Thinking of substituting a good dolphin kick instead of that breast stroke kick in the hybrid drill, 'cos I recall that in a crowded session at my old 25m pool (during school summer break - hordes of kids!) when swimming B.S. I used to substitute dolphin kicks instead of B.S. ones so that my otherwise wide-kicking legs weren't a nuisance to adjacent swimmers as I passed them!

[Outcome after experimenting this morning! - not very satisfactory - a dolphin kick is not as powerful as a B.S. one!]

by Don Wright Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:46 am

Think I might have made a "mini break-through" with my 11th timed 20m "effort" - since keeping to the "straight leg flutter kicking on the side" advocated by "Sprinter" (I only do it once/session, since it seems be no better if I try repeats - and there is much else I want to get through).

Over the previous 10 "efforts" there was one awful day when it took me 2'33" (making it 7.65 secs/metre). Over the 10 "efforts" - that made the average 5.76secs metre). I won't discount that bad timing, because yesterday I did a good one at the other end of the scale. I managed to get it down to 1'28" (4.4 secs/metre). The only thing I did differently from other occasions, was that after making an inhalation and returning my head UW for exhalation - I deliberately pushed my head down a bit (to raise the legs nearer the surface - effectively "Pressing the Buoy" while on the side). That meant, instead of looking at the passage backwards of the plastic "bib-bobs" on the adjacent lane rope - I was looking beneath the lane rope!

What perturbs me, is that I now always swim wearing buoyancy shorts - so "how come" my legs must have been a bit low beneath the surface!? Yet there is some evidence that this may be true in my short efforts (over about 6-7 metres at a time), while swimming body dolphin "on the side" at the surface. For that I usually keep my head only just beneath the surface for exhalation - but have noticed that, if I push my head down a bit during exhalation and partly bend my neck back to see my progress during a slow UW exhalation - I then seem to move a bit faster and the body action is more effective!

To get things "in perspective", I timed a 20m length on my back, doing the lower leg-swirl of the English Back Stroke (which is also the leg action used when towing a swimmer in trouble) - that took 51secs i.e. moving at a rate of 2.55 secs/metre. If only I could get somewhere near that time when flutter kicking on the side!!!

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