CHALLENGE 50/100 m

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CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:10 pm

Since it was mentioned several times here, that for adult learners breaking 50m in 30s and 100m in 1:10 is rather challenging (and I also believe that these are good numbers), I thought I create a dedicated topic about this:

1. "Registration of interest"
2. Progress reports.

It should be done in a 25m or 50m pool, and with a coach taking the time (something "official").

So well, I start the challenge and hope that in 2017 I can break both times.
I have a swim camp beginning of February (where I also turn 52), where I will take both times.
Current best times from the same camp last year: 50m in 34.4s, 100m in 1:15.8.

My current feeling is that for this camp I should be able to improve the 50m time.
And the rest should follow over the course of 2017 (hopefully  Wink )

What about YOU ?! Twisted Evil

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Tom65 on Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:37 am

Geez, your asking a lot from over 50 late starters, doubt I'll ever get quicker than a rough timed 17 seconds for 25 metres so 30sec 50's out. I'll try for the half through the ear, 15 for 25. Shocked

Was swimming 50's this morning, just taking a couple of breaths at each end. 30ish year old was continuous swimming in the next lane so I started my laps when he had passed the flags, lap for lap beat him to the end every time and got several seconds rest each time.
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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by SA on Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:31 am

I want to experiment less and swim harder this year, but I am not going to get tpp obsessed with it.
The pool is a place to escape the ratrace and all the  obligations outside. Not planning to get in the mindset of all those triathletes who only have a number in their head they have to improve upon.
I am going to swim harder, allowing the stroke to brake down more and we will see where it ends.
Once I reach 1.10 I will take some video stroke analysis somewhere to show it, so until that happens I have not succeeded.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:33 pm

Tom65 wrote:Geez, your asking a lot from over 50 late starters, doubt I'll ever get quicker than a rough timed 17 seconds for 25 metres so 30sec 50's out. I'll try for the half through the ear, 15 for 25. Shocked

Good!
How do you want to do it?
For the 50m/100m I think it's best to do the "real thing", with racing dive and somebody really taking the time (not somehow estimating it): this gives it full importance, and full effort.
You want to do this also for the 25m?

Tom65 wrote:
Was swimming 50's this morning, just taking a couple of breaths at each end. 30ish year old was continuous swimming in the next lane so I started my laps when he had passed the flags, lap for lap beat him to the end every time and got several seconds rest each time.
It seems to get really fast, you need also to go for full-effort swimming, with much longer rests then, say once per week. Likely best to go only over 25m (which for real sprinting is actually already too long, since taking longer than 10sec). For some the longer rests, for 25m's at least one minute rest, are hard to endure, but that is in effect some form of avoiding the maximum effort. So dare to take a proper rest (then you don't have an excuse anymore Surprised ).

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:40 pm

SA wrote:I want to experiment less and swim harder this year, but I am not going to get too obsessed with it.
The pool is a place to escape the ratrace and all the  obligations outside. Not planning to get in the mindset of all those triathletes who only have a number in their head they have to improve upon.
You might have several numbers in your head   cyclops

SA wrote:
I am going to swim harder, allowing the stroke to brake down more and we will see where it ends.
Once I reach 1.10 I will take some video stroke analysis somewhere to show it, so until that happens I have not succeeded.
How to you want to measure this? A racing situation?

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:46 pm

Good idea Sprinter! Actually I'm focused on distance swimming, however after all this talk I can't help but "register" Smile

My current best times over 25, 50 and 100m (SCM and from a pushoff) are respectively 15.33s, 36 flat and 1:18.4. I wasn't timed by a coach but I used the Tempo Trainer, which I find quite precise. For instance I set TT at 80SPM (0.75s), start right AFTER a given beep and count all the beeps (strokes + turns&pushoff). For the 50m I took exactly 48 beeps at 80SPM, which means 36.

Given my current times, reasonable goals for this year could be sub 15s 25m, sub 35s 50m and sub 1:15 100m. By the way, could you also post your 25m time for reference? I think it's a useful data to better understand what to expect from a 50m.

Same for SA, could you post your current 25, 50 and 100 and specify how they were timed?

Happy challenge everyone!
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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:14 pm

s.sciame wrote:Good idea Sprinter! Actually I'm focused on distance swimming, however after all this talk I can't help but "register" Smile
Alright, the countdown is ticking  Twisted Evil

s.sciame wrote:
My current best times over 25, 50 and 100m (SCM and from a pushoff) are respectively 15.33s, 36 flat and 1:18.4. I wasn't timed by a coach but I used the Tempo Trainer, which I find quite precise. For instance I set TT at 80SPM (0.75s), start right AFTER a given beep and count all the beeps (strokes + turns&pushoff). For the 50m I took exactly 48 beeps at 80SPM, which means 36.
That's definitely reasonably. For repeatability I think it's best to go precisely at the beep. The times you get in this way seem to be roughly comparable with a racing dive: you miss the jump, but you don't have the response-time-delay. I think I am now a bit faster with a racing dive, but that took me some practice.

s.sciame wrote:
Given my current times, reasonable goals for this year could be sub 15s 25m, sub 35s 50m and sub 1:15 100m. By the way, could you also post your 25m time for reference? I think it's a useful data to better understand what to expect from a 50m.

Same for SA, could you post your current 25, 50 and 100 and specify how they were timed?

Happy challenge everyone!
Salvo
Using the Tempo-Trainer (and wall-start), my best times over 25m are currently about 15 sec. Without it, real max-effort, I should be a bit faster, but I don't know.
It seems that for max-effort, it is important also to practice without the metronome.

Since about half a year I am trying to change my stroke to a "real swimmer's stroke", with a very strong kick. That takes quite some time, but I hope this year I can reap the benefits Very Happy

My other times were with a racing dive (but not from the starting block, only from the edge), in a 25m pool, taken by the coach at the camp.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by nightcrawler on Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:49 pm

Very useful thread, appreciate you sprinter.

Instead of wasting time with artificial drills, the best drill is the race and/or max speed time trial for amateur swimmers to make them learn the technique providing the faster times. Short broken sets are wonderful to achieve this, i.e 4x25, 50+25+25, 25+50+25, 75+25, 4x50, 3x(4x25), etc...

As i have observed in the elite swimmers, they can be both short or long distance, both have nearly the same sprint times, the best near time example was Sun Yang who also got the 200m free as well as 1500m free.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by SA on Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:06 am

A year ago rhere were some fast swimmers in the pool doing a lot of interval work 100s leaving on 1.30 ro 1.45.
Swimming 1.10 to 1.20 pace.
Chased them for about 3 months. At the end it wasnt so hard anymore, but it was still a horribly exhausting weekly session.
total 4 times a week.
25 m pool. pushofff start, looking at the poolclock
25 m 15 sec, 50 m 33 sec 100 m 1 min 15 plus or minus 1 sec.

No more swimmers to chase since then. 100m has dropped to about 1 min 20 swimming 3 times a week.


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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:51 pm

Sounds great!
smootharnie, do you have any videos while you were swimming?

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:15 pm

so it seems that 15s over 25m is top speed for many of us (maybe improvable a bit with proper strength training? don't know).

If so, the target of 1:10 over 100 may be slightly easier than 30s over 50m?

Salvo

PS: today I had fun with one of NC's power sets at the end of the session: 4x25 fast in under 16s (wanted to hit 15 flat but I failed)

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:09 pm

I like sprints, because after reaching my limits it is so hard to improve the small distances. For example; for me with an average 1000km/year workout;
- Improving 1x100m 1 second takes 1 year.
- Improving 1x50m 1 second takes 2 years.
- Improving 1x25m 1 second takes 4 years.

Sometimes I never see any improvement(actually I havent seen any improvement since 20 years) but challenging to improve my short distances, provides me extra power and flexibility, stimulates my fast twitch fibres and anaerobic condition which also stimulates my VO2max in long distances. In this duration of time if I get ill or get injured then go back to the starting point, maybe worst than it. Swimming is really "unfair". Happy laps...

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by SA on Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:04 am

is there anyone who used this pure shoulder driven focus?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN1_9Nrd3HE

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:03 am

that's a great video! And a good dryland drill as well perhaps. I'm recently focusing on something similar when doing some sprints over 25 and 50m with a straight arm recovery. I mean I don't really focus on the shoulder blades (though I now want to try) but I try to throw the recovery arm as far forward as possible while feeling the opposite elbow (in catch position) connected and aided by this throwing action.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:10 pm

Any progress so far guys? After some short power sets (4-8x25m fast on :30) at the end of my sessions I'm at 35.5s over 50m (tested right after a power set). Up to this point and comparing to when it felt impossible to get under 40s, it seems going faster it's just a matter of getting used to higher stroke rates. Still no need of a monster kick or a very powerful pull for instance. A straight arm recovery helped a lot. In order to break 35s I just have to raise cadence another touch (or do a faster turn) and it seems definitely doable so far.
I'll also retest the 100m in a while (perhaps when I hit a plateau on the 50m).

Please share your progress if you like.
Happy swimming,
Salvo

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:43 am

Today at the end of an 8x400m set I did the below challenge:
4x25m freestyle max speed, int:35" (SPL:16-17, average:15")

Yesterday I did the below set, no warm up no another set, just 600m total workout distance:
6x100m int:1:35 (1:11, 1:14, 1:13, 1:15, 1:12, 1:12)

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:10 pm

Update: one of my goals for this year is done, 50m sub 35s today, very happy! After the usual power set (thanks NC!) at the end of the session, I swam and timed the 50 as follows:

Set TT in mode 3 at 83SPM. Pushed off right after the beep 0, 20SPL on the way out, 5 beeps for turn and (shallow) pushoff, 21SPL on the way back (used the last stroke to touch the wall, if I had to flip I would have hit 20SPL again). Total 48 beeps or 34.7s.

I know I shouldn't use the TT on these tests. For now however I find it useful for 2 reasons:

1) I can use it as a stopwatch with good precision
2) Since I come from long slow swimming and I'm still getting familiar with unexplored stroke rates and paces, the TT helps me on a few things: it encourages me to go out fast enough (and NOT be too conservative in the first length). It also tells me if I splitted evenly or not, how fast my turn was, what cadence is sustainable before I start spinning the wheels etc.

The other goal was sub 1:15 over 100m, for now I'll stick with 25m power sets and try to improve the 50m more.

Salvo

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:52 am

Swimming didnt choose us, we chose swimming, that's the problem! Very Happy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMLJ8k7I6nU

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by SA on Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:23 am

Yeah, she is one of my favorites too.

I am sure you can do it Salvo. Have fun.

Currently working on this monment in the stroke again. Throwing the high side over the (hopefully) locked low arm.


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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:10 pm

SA wrote:

Currently working on this monment in the stroke again. Throwing the high side over the  (hopefully) locked low arm.


Me too. A straighter arm recovery and throwing the high side over the locked low arm helps me a lot in these short sprints. However this throwing effect for me works only at high rates (around 80SPM or more). When swimming between 60 and 70SPM the throwing effect disappears and it's easier to do a bent arm recovery.

Salvo

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by nightcrawler on Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:50 am

s.sciame wrote:
SA wrote:

Currently working on this monment in the stroke again. Throwing the high side over the  (hopefully) locked low arm.


Me too. A straighter arm recovery and throwing the high side over the locked low arm helps me a lot in these short sprints. However this throwing effect for me works only at high rates (around 80SPM or more). When swimming between 60 and 70SPM the throwing effect disappears and it's easier to do a bent arm recovery.

Salvo

I am suppporting and doing that at any distance swimmer should use the same technique and never budge from the DPS in the trainings. Because speed can be best developed by increasing the cadance by maintaining the DPS.

At the last %10 of a race, swimmers generally nevermind the DPS(technique) and increase the cadance may be kick more to achieve acceleration(but note that this is the last shot).

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:39 pm

Just a few thoughts to keep this thread alive (by the way, @Sprinter: how did the swim camp go?).

Last sunday my pool hosted a meet for young swimmers. After my dryland training I was curious to take a look at the meet, since I hardly ever get to see fast(ish) swimmers in action when I usually swim (early mornings).
So, I actually didn't see any impressive stroke in these boys. They were doing 50m SCM individual and relays. I saw basic starts (no uw dolphin), basic turns (shallow pushoff), nearly always more than 20SPL on the way back (around 23-26). And yet, the fastest ones swam 28-29s, the others were a few seconds behind. By looking at these boys it seemed that breaking 30s is the easiest thing in the world. So come on pals, let's go for it! Wink

Salvo

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Adivio on Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:22 pm

Nah, not for me Smile. I'll just wait for my son to do it. He is now almost 10 and he got
bitten by the swimming bug. Last summer he wanted to quit and now he wants to go to pool every day Smile. Already got noticed by coaches. Let's see how long he will enjoy it.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by Sprinter on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:11 pm

s.sciame wrote:Just a few thoughts to keep this thread alive (by the way, @Sprinter: how did the swim camp go?).

Went well.
My flutter kick is making progress, but I still need to work especially on the right leg, which bends too much. (Perhaps this is actually rather natural for a right-handed person -- the right leg is the playing-leg, the left leg is the backbone-leg).

Body position looks (and feels) better. Much less rotation.
Now (after several years) I am also here in agreement with the style argued in that camp: NO active rotation (for the frontcrawl, different from backstroke).
What for me is a major argument against it: it prevents the adult learner from developing a good catch! The pull is already complicated enough, and it is overpowered by the rotation. Your main thought is about the rotation, a complicated and varying motion (when to start/stop, how to execute, when to accelerate/decelerate ...), and the *real* mean thing, the pull, can't be developed properly.
So a good swimmer, once he has developed a good stroke, *can* do the rotation (but doesn't have to), since he knows how to swim, but the learner shouldn't do it.

Main emphasise was on the pull. Now I know rather well what for me is the appropriate style: NOT an early high elbow! But classical style, with a strong push (via the triceps) below the body. So the power phase is NOT early, but late.
This seems also to be the most appropriate style for late starters.

At the camp there was a strong argumentation against taking professional swimmers as precise role models: this would be completely inappropriate for late starters (and for anybody without that amount of training). And this is also my conclusion after years of watching videos -- just forget about them, except in a very general sense (but don't look at the details!).

Timing-wise: since I concentrated so much on the kick, and that takes a long time to develop, I didn't expect better times. Though I hoped for slightly better times, but the night before we took the times I got rather ill (a monster cramp of the oesophagus), couldn't sleep or eat the evening/night, and this in the context of a camp, with two swimming sessions per day, where rest and proper eating is important,  that doesn't help. I did then only do the 50m, without any warm-up, did 34.3sec/50m (SCM), and that was alright (directly after the dive, when I wanted to start the kick, I just felt a big wave of weakness rushing through my body -- really  Rolling Eyes in a sense that was rather funny). (Also, for a proper race the warm-up seems to be of main importance --- just jumping into the water, completely cold, I don't think that I can perform well.)

s.sciame wrote:
Last Sunday my pool hosted a meet for young swimmers. After my dryland training I was curious to take a look at the meet, since I hardly ever get to see fast(ish) swimmers in action when I usually swim (early mornings).
So, I actually didn't see any impressive stroke in these boys.

Swimming is a centimetre-sport, as some say: in the camp environment there are typically some world-class pool swimmers around, but I have my doubts that without knowing the names one would recognise their swimming as outstanding ("look that is so-and-so, his/her swimming *must* be outstanding").
They are very straight and long in the water, and look rather relaxed. That makes definitely a difference to the masters swimmers. But from a certain level on they look alike. Sure, they have their quirks, but the sports-scientist might say that they swim so fast *despite* these quirks (while the amateur thinks it is *because* of these quirks, and wants to simulate them).

s.sciame wrote:
They were doing 50m SCM individual and relays. I saw basic starts (no uw dolphin), basic turns (shallow pushoff), nearly always more than 20SPL on the way back (around 23-26). And yet, the fastest ones swam 28-29s, the others were a few seconds behind. By looking at these boys it seemed that breaking 30s is the easiest thing in the world. So come on pals, let's go for it! Wink
Salvo

Again at that camp I got confirmation that breaking the 30s for a masters (around 50) is very hard: the two best were just below 30s (for 50 SCM), and they swim in the club, also for a long time (perhaps starting at age 16, never real competitive sport, but nevertheless quite serious).
Another number which I hear a lot in this context: they all have 27.x sec for 50 SCM as their personal best (whey they were young). Seems to be a natural barrier, either for those who did the short distances, but not at national level, or for those concentrating on long distances (several world-class triathletes for example, with swimming background, have as their personal best around 1min per 100m).

I think the young boys have various serious advantages:
1. Body position not hampered yet.
2. None of these destructive ideas like "rotation".
3. Kick seems to work well.

Of course, there are tons of young boys swimming awful, but you don't see them at such a meeting, it's already highly selected.

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Re: CHALLENGE 50/100 m

Post by s.sciame on Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:00 pm

Sprinter wrote:
What for me is a major argument against it: it prevents the adult learner from developing a good catch! The pull is already complicated enough, and it is overpowered by the rotation. Your main thought is about the rotation, a complicated and varying motion (when to start/stop, how to execute, when to accelerate/decelerate ...), and the *real* mean thing, the pull, can't be developed properly.
So a good swimmer, once he has developed a good stroke, *can* do the rotation (but doesn't have to), since he knows how to swim, but the learner shouldn't do it.

Main emphasise was on the pull. Now I know rather well what for me is the appropriate style: NOT an early high elbow! But classical style, with a strong push (via the triceps) below the body. So the power phase is NOT early, but late.
This seems also to be the most appropriate style for late starters.

Thanks for the sharing Sprinter. Definitely agree with the quote above, and this classical style with a strong push fits me as well.

Salvo

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