Stroke Length

Ok dont do that stroke then

You can observe the effect of the pulling and kicking on the body in an endlless pool without seeing what happens underwater, At keast its effect on swimspeed.

A person who says this has not been aware of any training science... have you heard about measurement of wattage and/or VO2max? If no, find and read, if yes, then do more than hearing, read and learn about it in deep before making any comments routing the people to wrong directions. I assume that I didnt hear such a sentence from a person who has such a swimming experience like you

I have already written my comments, wont respond your questions above , you can already find the answers in my comments.

Emotional times in Istanbul, take care friends.

Tom65 wrote:Emotional times in Istanbul, take care friends.

My swim pals mustnt take offense during such conversations, everyone has a way to express himself/herself, this is my way to smootharnie!  

You know me I know you, I love you you love me, what's important is the intention  

I like smootharnie's passion and sharings, and respect lots of his quotes, he is a valuable person in my eyes.

In Adam's case; he is also trying to find something behind the illusion, I understand his excitement but I can say that it is not really so complicated that much Adam illustrated, simply Adam is applying more wattage of power during his push and in order to hide it makes a relaxed hand exit from the water while swimming with more rotation and less strokes, during rotational stroke he is greatly likely using more oxygen than the smooth technique.

I am doing the same all the time in my trainings in order to improve pace in different gears with less and more strokes according to the technique... Today at lunch time I swam 2K with a friend(the 2nd workout of the day), his pace is about 1:35/100m, I swam beside him, didnt pass him, followed him and watched his technique, he 45 years old master swimmer and also an ex club swimmer, the difference between him and me was obviously my stroke count per lap(SPL) , he was struggling while I am extending and gliding, also he was kicking more than me. It was not because of his technique, it was because my power, the wattage I apply to the water, even we have the same king of 6bk front quadrant swimming technique, he was pulling weaker than me. In the last 100m I accelerated and swam the last 100m 1:14, we completed the 2k in32 minutes, and I completed 31:40 with an easy relaxed pace. Once a week I am swimming with him, he is an Electronics Engineer, an educated master swimmer, I like such people, because swimming also a way of connecting and finding such precious people! I am also thinking like the same about my swim pals in this forum.  

By the way, today there is really emotional times in Istanbul, today snow is coming according to the forecasts, the traffic will be weird after 17:00

Nightcrawler is a swimcoach, and in my experience most swimcoaches are missing some vital screws. (my manner of communicating with Nightcrawler )

I dont understand your comment.
All I say is that a swimmer moving forward and backward in an endless pool has  a speed variation during his stroke.
Swimming at a constant speed is theoretically the most efficient.
If you let the speed vary, you have to overcompensate by using different techniques that are more efficient in some way, so that they overcompensate the extra loss.
That could be staying longer in a super streamlined state, giving the muscles some exra rest time, or being able to apply more power in some way thats not possible without braking the continuous speed (breaststroke kick).
For some swimmers and some speeds the total efficiency swimming with a variable speed could be higher than using another technique that results in an even speed.
A sprinter starts to move to a long stroke with a lot of glide if he slows down instead of a a short stroke with direct catch. The last one will feel like a high bycycle cadance at a low speed.

In general though, you should strive to keep the speed as constant as possible.
Who doesnt agree on this one?

i m not only a coach but also an elite performer/swimmer can understand when i see somebody while swimming that what he does behind the scenes, how he feels in the water.

recommend you read the below article which is same with my perspective:
http://theraceclub.com/aqua-notes/swimming-efficiently/

I like some discussion but sadly i cant think of anything where we do fundamentally disagree Nightcrawler.
There is also nothing to disagree with in your article.
I am only more optimistic about the improvement possibilitys for the avarage adult onset swimmer.

No need to discover America once more. We had already discussed about Adam in our whatsapp group:

Bu arkadaşta tek takdir ettiğim şey, yüzme geçmişi olmayan sıradan birinin bile antrenman yaparak hız değil ama uzun mesafeleri yüzebilme dayanıklılığına kavuşabileceğini göstermesidir. Ayrıca teknik konusunda evrensel değil, kendi odaklı. Teknik yüzmenin her kişide farklı sonuçlar doğurduğunun ya farkında değil ya bilmiyor ya da bilmezden geliyor. Açık suda düşük frekansın Mellouli gibi bir temsilcisinin Rio'da kısmen dalgalı denizde nasıl finişte geride kaldığını biliyoruz. Yani düşük kol sayısı bu arkadaşın dediği gibi açıksu yüzücülerine uygun değildir.

Translation:

The most important thing that we appreciate as to Adam is he is showing that even a post-started adult swimmer can manage to swim longer distance by gaining endurance instead of speed. On the other hand, he is individual not universal about the technique he is using. He is unaware of/or havent experienced yet that swimming with long and elegant strokes can lead to different result for everyone. In open water races, a near time example such as Mellouli who has long strokes couldnt succeded in little rough water in Rio with his high stroke rate. As a result, in rough open water long and high stroke rates are not advantageous.

what do you thing of Ferry Weertmans stroke NC?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQY6EoYVRxs

why asking about ferry? he is already swimming like a ferry! i cant speak ill of or grade such a world class athlete also an olympic champion.

I appreciate your comments and I boldly state, I understand. As 'old farts' entering this strange swim world (read Lloydie for my story) I ask you this question: as late starters, what did you miss? From my seat, I think I know. Those few here that come from the ' been in the water since birth ilk' are unable to see you perspective (I think). You are grown intelligent adults. Why can't you just be taught this like a.b.c.? Maybe you are over-analysing it. Early years are spent in play and experimenting with water. Most great swimmers were 'pool rats'. They were always at the pool. So if you want to know what they know, you have to spend more time in the water 'playing'.

swimcoachingblogger wrote:I ask you this question: as late starters, what did you miss? From my seat, I think I know. Those few here that come from the ' been in the water since birth ilk' are unable to see you perspective (I think). You are grown intelligent adults. Why can't you just be taught this like a.b.c.? Maybe you are over-analysing it. Early years are spent in play and experimenting with water. Most great swimmers were 'pool rats'. They were always at the pool. So if you want to know what they know, you have to spend more time in the water 'playing'.

I agree, we often over analyse. As for spending more time in the water 'playing' I also agree but the problem is that we have to get the most from our limited time budget for swimming (4h a week in many cases, even less - by the way according to Tim Ferris you can achieve a lot of things at 4h a week ). We have to find the right compromise between playing/experimenting and training. Too much playing for an adult often leads nowhere (it sometimes leads to over-analysis by the way).

Is playing/experimenting the only thing we missed as late starters? I think we also missed a lot of flexibility. One of the fields where the difference with kids is huge is kicking with a board: all the experiments in the world will never make me kick like a kid.

Salvo

swimcoachingblogger wrote:I appreciate your comments and I boldly state, I understand. As 'old farts' entering this strange swim world (read Lloydie for my story) I ask you this question: as late starters, what did you miss? From my seat, I think I know. Those few here that come from the ' been in the water since birth ilk' are unable to see you perspective (I think). You are grown intelligent adults. Why can't you just be taught this like a.b.c.? Maybe you are over-analysing it. Early years are spent in play and experimenting with water. Most great swimmers were 'pool rats'. They were always at the pool. So if you want to know what they know, you have to spend more time in the water 'playing'.

It seems I completely disagree.
Children never "play" in the water, except when, what they do most of the time, fooling around (with non-swimming)!
"Playing" is completely unnatural for a child/adolescent -- they just DO! It's only the adult who starts "playing" with different strokes etc.

A young person just swims, as he/she does any other thing, in the way that "naturally" comes to them.
Actually, at least in the UK and what I can see, most children are very bad with swimming. By chance I watch from time to time the education of school-classes in swimming at our pool, and yet I have not seen ANY child having just a reasonable stroke -- it's all rather horrible (and super-slow).

Sure, fast young swimmers exist, but they just jump into the water and swim fast -- basically from the beginning.

I can actually talk from own experience. At the age of around 12 we moved town. For a few weeks I got into the local swimming club, did swim perhaps once or twice a week. I was considered talented. Then came the town-championship: Over 50m I would have won my age group with 33 sec, but I was disqualified, since I didn't touch the wall -- I just had learned the tumble-turn, and I had done it a bit too early, so that I was a bit too far away from the wall. Everybody agreed that I lost quite some time in this way, and apparently for this low level it was actually up to the judge to disqualify or not. And he did. I got so angry about that, that I completely stopped swimming (a very strange episode). Anyway, I didn't do any sports at the time, just a few weeks of some swimming with the club, and faster than 33sec per 50m.

No swimming thereafter, except of half a year of choice-sport at school 6 years later, swimming once per week for half a year. Then around 17 years of absolutely zero swimming, have not even been to any beach. In 2000 then an all-inclusive holiday in Mexico (my first holiday ever (except of with the parents)), and the beautiful water there incited me to swim a bit (crystal-clear water, nice little fishes ...). Back to Toronto, I then re-started swimming more seriously in the masters club at Toronto university. First I couldn't swim 25m. After some time (don't remember) I could swim longer distances. But the fastest at that time was likely around 40sec/50m (perhaps a bit faster). Don't remember exactly, but I guess I was training around twice per week. I had a very strong feeling of that I needed to find the lost origin, that somehow the old swimming could be resurrected. But it didn't happen. 2002 another move, then for say 1-2 years at the university swimming club, around twice per week. Likely speed around the same, a bit better than 40sec. Then longer and longer working hours, less and less exercise. Until a breakdown in 2012, where then I had my first SwimSmooth analysis, and I took to swimming more seriously, with dry-land exercises, stretching and rotator-cuff-stuff. Increasing slowly from 3 sessions per week to now 6 sessions per week. And *finally* I am around the same speed (roughly or nearly) than 40 years ago, where I basically just jumped into the pool.

What the difference? I think (at least in my case) it's all in the FAULTS the body did develop (where I have a hunchback, which acts as the elephant in the room). I remember that at the age of around 17 a swimmer once talked to my in the school library, and wanted to test my shoulder flexibility -- at the time it was very good, without any problem I was able to go into streamline with the arms together behind the head. Hah, those were the days. With my legs, due to my back-illness I was always rather stiff, so I don't think there is much of a difference. But I was definitely able to turn my head around, nicely in both directions. Big problems now.

These shoulder/neck problems seems decisive -- they also completely distort the perception! The more you practise, the more bad habits develop, a vicious circle.

Much better adult teaching is needed, which cares a lot about such problems. And constant monitoring is needed: you hear about the problem once, for a while you correct it, but then typically all the corrections vanish, due to completely improper perception.

s.sciame wrote:
I think we also missed a lot of flexibility. One of the fields where the difference with kids is huge is kicking with a board: all the experiments in the world will never make me kick like a kid.

I believe that it is of the greatest importance to practise the kick! Sure, it takes many years, but it'll pay off. Among other things, we also need to prepare for old age. I don't want to look like nearly all elderly gentlemen at our pool, who all drag the dead limbs behind them like the proverbial sack of potatoes. The earlier you start, the easier it'll be.

Perhaps it really is a big (the biggest?) difference, compared to young (talented) swimmers: for shorter distances, they can use a strong and consistent kick, which adds good propulsion. A standard number seems to be 50m (short course) in 27 sec for a medium, non-ambitious club swimmer, age 16-30.

For the adult learner, perhaps both flexibility and strength is missing, so that the kick is a disaster, and for a long time more hinders than helps. Unfortunately, instead of attacking the problem head-on, many choose to evade.

As an aside, on improving the kick: it seems very dangerous for developing the kick, to add ANY kind of bending to the knee -- apparently what happens by itself is the most you can afford, and any deliberate bending makes the kick inefficient. Sure, the great professional kickers can do that, but apparently you can only approach that if you really concentrated for a long time on straight-leg kicking (which likely almost never is really straight, so it'll be fine).

Sprinter wrote:
I believe that it is of the greatest importance to practise the kick! Sure, it takes many years, but it'll pay off. Among other things, we also need to prepare for old age. I don't want to look like nearly all elderly gentlemen at our pool, who all drag the dead limbs behind them like the proverbial sack of potatoes. The earlier you start, the easier it'll be.

You're definitely right, Sprinter, that's another good reason to practice the kick! Whenever I watch my underwater videos I always really dislike my kick, either when it's 6bk (hips and ankles look stiff, butt not engaged and the action appears weak) and when it's 2bk (trailing dead limbs effect). And I'm only 39 and in good overall shape! Some days ago I tried to do some vertical kicking: 4 x 1min with hands above the water, I was really taxed in the end, it was hard to keep the mouth above the water.

Personally speaking, the problem with practicing kick in isolation is that I find it really boring. Vertical kick is perhaps one of the best ways to focus both on upkick and downkick, but it's boring. Maybe doing laps kicking with fins could be less boring because you move faster, don't know. I was thinking about buying the FINIS PDF fins because they should promote good technique (inward feet) and not too much propulsion. Also kicking with TT (ie at given precise rates) could be fine.

Do you have any favourite kicking sets you practice on regular basis and recommend?

Salvo

A kicking trick that I learned by trying to teach an adult to kick correctly is 'The Coin On The Bottom Trick' on my blog:
Coin-on-the-bottom Trick
I often encounter swimmers who are kicking incorrectly.  Triathletes would be particularly guilty of this charge.

http://swimcoachingblog.com/2014/01/16/coin-on-the-bottom-trick/

I respectfully disagree with the statement that children don't play. By 'play' I mean interaction with friends around water, some in, some out, but all of those things, although seemingly unproductive, are good for balance, timing, speed, agility.

Sprinter wrote:
Much better adult teaching is needed, which cares a lot about such problems. And constant monitoring is needed: you hear about the problem once, for a while you correct it, but then typically all the corrections vanish, due to completely improper perception.

Exactly. I started filming myself every once in a while. It's so useful (unless you swim with a squad and are always monitored of course): you fix something for a while and then the corrections vanish. We're fortunate enough to be able to film ourselves very easily (just a mobile phone and a waterproof cover do the job).

Salvo

I think people with flexible ankles who advice people with stiff ankles to relax the feet to let it act as a fin often dont realise how stiff the ankles can be.
If the ankle is rigid as thick hard rubber, relaxing the foot lets the foot point down. No amount of water pressue will pivot the foot into the desired direction, so the foot will be pointing down all the time while being held `floppy`.
Pointing the foot with some effort and make it a stiff extension of the leg  that points at least more backwards can be a better solution in that case.
No propulsion from that combo to be expected, but at least less drag.

Dont know when one solution is more effective than the other.
Pointing the foot with much effort all the time isnt much fun either.

SA wrote:I think people with flexible ankles who advice people with stiff ankles to relax the feet to let it act as a fin often dont realise how stiff the ankles can be.
If the ankle is rigid as thick hard rubber, relaxing the foot lets the foot point down. No amount of water pressue will pivot the foot into the desired direction, so the foot will be pointing down all the time while being held `floppy`.
Pointing the foot with some effort and make it a stiff extension of the leg  that points at least more backwards can be a better solution in that case.
No propulsion from that combo to be expected, but at least less drag.

Dont know when one solution is more effective than the other.
Pointing the foot with much effort all the time isnt much fun either.

But it also can lead to cramps eventually. Unfortunately "the curtain is short". In the end I still prefer to leave the ankle floppy, maybe trying to stretch the hip more as someone in the Swim Smooth forum used to advice (guess 400im or Ducky)

Salvo

Whats the angle between your top of foot and shin when maximally pointing the toes?
Mine is about 160 degrees now, so pointing dowm about 20 degrees looking from the side.
3 years of stretching has improved this about 20 degrees coming from 40 degrees.

SA wrote:Whats the angle between your top of foot and shin when maximally pointing the toes?
Mine is about 160 degrees now, so pointing dowm about 20 degrees looking from the side.

More or less the same.

Salvo

s.sciame wrote:
Personally speaking, the problem with practicing kick in isolation is that I find it really boring. Vertical kick is perhaps one of the best ways to focus both on upkick and downkick, but it's boring. Maybe doing laps kicking with fins could be less boring because you move faster, don't know. I was thinking about buying the FINIS PDF fins because they should promote good technique (inward feet) and not too much propulsion. Also kicking with TT (ie at given precise rates) could be fine.

Do you have any favourite kicking sets you practice on regular basis and recommend?

I never find yet anything boring -- but I "cheat" in the sense that I nearly only do short high-intensity sets. For kicking, I've seen such sets recommended several times also for the long-distance swimmers.

So for the vertical kicking, forget about holding your hands "somewhere" in the middle, but go all out, for the maximal effort, that is, full streamlining of the hands above the head (as tight as it gets). That'll take some time until you are becoming bored of it. I do currently 5-10 sets, each around 12-16 sec, starting a few seconds just warming up, and then going into the streamline position. In the past I did sets like you describe, but I am no longer so convinced that they are useful. Of the utmost importance is to keep the legs really rather straight, and having a really rather small kick (with the hands in non-streamline position, you can get away with a very big kick, which is harmful to the full stroke!). The new, extreme form I practise something like for a month now, and progress is slow but it happens. Currently I get the goggles out of the water, but not yet the mouth.

For the kick-sets I use the snorkel, and, of course , I mostly do 25m's, from good speed to as fast as possible.

What seems extremely useful here is to alternate this with sets using the full stroke, but also with the snorkel, and trying to maintain the hard kick! Most of the time I do the first, say, 5 beep units kicking only, as hard as possible, and then add the pull, concentrating very much on the continuation of the constant strong kicking. That you can kick fast on its own doesn't mean that you can integrate it into the stroke. Getting the kicking-machine first running, and only then, on top of that, adding the pull, seems very important for me. If I start without that, I'll end up with the ordinary weak, non-propulsive kick (or with a bad kick, disturbing the pull).

Since months I nearly only swim in that way; from a long-distance swimming perspective these are overkicking-exercises, but for a sprinter that's just ordinary swimming. The pure kick-sets aren't that much, say 600m or so, but the rest of swimming is also a kick-set! I am doing kick-exercises now since around 2 1/2 years, with increased emphasis the last 3-6 months, but only now I feel that finally some real progress happens. Bending the knees is the devil! And at least for me it takes a long time to acquire the strength and endurance for the kick (since say half a year it feels like constantly sore muscles in the legs). But it feels better and better. There is a kind of "fullness" to it, to be in command.

SA wrote:I think people with flexible ankles who advice people with stiff ankles to relax the feet to let it act as a fin often dont realise how stiff the ankles can be.

Actually, all the time when I investigate ankle flexibility of other people, I am very much surprised how flexible they are!
Haven't met yet anybody who wasn't able to somehow get close to a straight line, old and young folks. But quite a few drag the feet nevertheless like a hook behind them. So a dedicated effort is indeed needed, as you say, to point the toes.

SA wrote:
If the ankle is rigid as thick hard rubber, relaxing the foot lets the foot point down. No amount of water pressue will pivot the foot into the desired direction, so the foot will be pointing down all the time while being held `floppy`.
Pointing the foot with some effort and make it a stiff extension of the leg  that points at least more backwards can be a better solution in that case.
No propulsion from that combo to be expected, but at least less drag.

Dont know when one solution is more effective than the other.
Pointing the foot with much effort all the time isnt much fun either.

In the GoSwim-texts accompanying their videos, quite often you hear something like, at the end: "and don't forget to point the toes!". So for most an effort is needed.

I guess there need to be focussed lengths, pointing them as much as possible. Then there need to be lengths with some other emphasise, but where you still keep some attention to the problem. And then you also need to learn to relax.

If the body is not ready (and most of the time it isn't), then you can only spiral towards the goal.

Getting the kicking-machine first running, and only then, on top of that, adding the pull, seems very important for me. If I start without that, I'll end up with the ordinary weak, non-propulsive kick (or with a bad kick, disturbing the pull). wrote:

Do you start and keep a 6BK the whole length?

I do a bit the same with fins sprinting 25 m, max kick and adding the arms but i do loose track of the number of kicks often. All I know is that some kicks connect with the pull and roll, but it dont know if its a 6BK or a 8Bk.