Nightcrawler is Back!

s.sciame wrote:

nightcrawler wrote:of course 25m time is not only a measure. 50-100m times should also be considered.

actually, to measure your talent/potential you can ask yourself that how much distance you have swum and how much you have improved since then? if you have been swimming 5 years and swam 5000km in total and still cannot swim a 100m sub 1:10, then it means that you are not for swimming. 25-50-100 times not only short distance indicators but also should better be taken into account for long distance events. for examle a swimmer who has maximal 1:15 100m time cannot maintain 1:30 pace in 800-1500-5000 events, may hold 1:40 which is a very weak performance for 5 years of work.

Ok, so today I tried a couple of fast 25m at the end of the session. I hit 15.33s (water start) and I swam and timed like this: set TT at 90SPM (=0.666s), started AFTER beep 0 (in order not to make a false start) and touched the wall at the 23rd beep, with 20 strokes. I suspect this is still not my "DNA" and I believe I could improve it with some speed work (which I had never done so far by the way). Anyway, DNA or not, this is a useful info to collect and gives me an idea of what to expect/ask myself from a 50 and a 100 (having never sprinted before I also have to learn how to be less conservative and really push to max speed).

Some other data to take the sums: I started training (and keeping a detailed training log) on September 2014. Before that time I was able to swim and used to go to the pool a couple of times per week but I didn't do any kind of training, only focused on learning technique. By the way, I'm self taught and self coached (I'm an "internet swimmer" ).

On September 2014 (I was 37yo) my 1500m pace was 1:50, my best 100m time was 1:32 and best 50m was 42s (best 25m N/A). Fast forward to today: I swam 1137.5 km in 28 months (avg 40.6k/month), my 1500m pace is 1:33 (improved by 15.4%), best 100m 1:18.4 (improved by 14.7%), best 50m 36.75 (improved by 12.5%). Of course I'm also faster over longer than 1500m distances, but here I don't have data to compare.

During these 28 months I did mostly threshold and aerobic sets, and basically zero speed development work. In other words I followed the SS framework and it worked so far. I also feel like the improvements have been quite slow and that if I want to improve more I should also start doing some speed development work. But in the end the only thing that matters is that I never once got bored, I love swimming and I'm loving the journey wherever it takes me.

Salvo  

Best 100m 1:18 is not so good as you know, but a smart USRPT training routine can make you swim with a sustainable 1:24/100m pace for 1,5K and 3K with in 1-2 years depending on your concentration and other factors such as nutrition and recovery.

well, honestly 1:24 for 1500m in 2 years is way beyond my expectations... I'm already doing some usrpt sets at 400m pace, I'm trying to practice every week all the paces from fast to steady aerobic pace (ie 1:20-1:40/100m). Going 100% usrpt is perhaps not so good for me, given that I currently can't get to the pool more than 3 or 4 times per week. Guess 100% usrpt is fine if you swim 5 times per week or more. By swimming only 3 to 4 times aerobic fitness could get worse by doing only usrpt imho.

Salvo

Then it maybe better for you to work for 200-400m free master race, you can adapt in 2-3 months and can swim 2:30 - 5:15 200-400m.

Hi Salvo,

Nowadays I have only maximum 1 hour and 15 minutes for a session, including chatting with the security who is the king of the pool in the mornings, undressing, shower, dressing, etc... it means that 1 hour 30 minutes. I wake up at 5:40, get in the water at 6:20 then leave the water at 7:30 , take a shower(sometimes dont take shower), put on my clothes and leave the pool at 7:40, arrive at the office at 7:55(from home to pool is 26km, from pool to office is 5km, spending over 1000 USD/year for this pool and bought a car for this reason - there is no pool near to my home, swimming is luxurious in my country). In these harsh conditions I am trying to maintain swimming, rapping snobs having big egos(guess ) and also working in a full time job to make my living. No pain no gain, if you want it, you have to get it, this is life itself, noone have told us that it's gonna be easy! When you win they say nothing but when you loose they jeer at you.

Remember Schilachi, he was doing nothing except heading the goal. Footbal means goal and swimming means speed. You can develop aerobic condition on land by running, doing manmakers, cycling, rowing, etc.. In this sense I have to say that gaining pace is harder and thus valuable than gaining endurance in water, speedy one always wins  

I am doing first day USRPT the following day anaerobic set., and recommend you the same if you like:

For example;

Today morning I did the below USRPT sets:
16x75m crawl int:75" (best:59", avg:61", SPL:18)
20x50m crawl int:50" (best:38", avg:40", SPL:17.5)
24x25m crawl int:25" (best:17", avg:18", SPL:17.2)
I did 200m sculling and doggy paddle drills among the sets. As a warm up, I did arm rolls on dry land. As a cool down, I did 10 min tethered swim. Total workout duration 1h 10min.
------------------------
Total: 2800m

Tomorrow I have the intention of doing the below:
5x400m crawl with a very easy pace (i.e 1:50)
Among the 400ms: 4x50m max crawl int:1:15 (target: sub 35")  
Expected workout duration: 1h 10min.
------------------------
Total: 2800m

nightcrawler wrote:
I am doing first day USRPT the following day anaerobic set., and recommend you the same if you like:

For example;

Today morning I did the below USRPT sets:
16x75m crawl int:75" (best:59", avg:61", SPL:18)
20x50m crawl int:50" (best:38", avg:40", SPL:17.5)
24x25m crawl int:25" (best:17", avg:18", SPL:17.2)
I did 200m sculling and doggy paddle drills among the sets. As a warm up, I did arm rolls on dry land. As a cool down, I did 10 min tethered swim. Total workout duration 1h 10min.
------------------------
Total: 2800m

Tomorrow I have the intention of doing the below:
5x400m crawl with a very easy pace (i.e 1:50)
Among the 400ms: 4x50m max crawl int:1:15 (target: sub 35")  
Expected workout duration: 1h 10min.
------------------------
Total: 2800m

Thanks for sharing and yes, I like it! I'll do a similar usrpt session tomorrow. About the other session: the 5x400m easy sound new, are you doing this kind of set on regular basis?

Salvo

1-2 days a week

05.01.2017 - 3500m
Set1:
- 16x75m crawl int:75" (avg:60", best:57", SPL:17.5)
Set2:
- 20x50m crawl int:50" (avg:39", best:37", SPL:17.3)
Set3:
- 24x25m crawl int:25" (avg:18", best:17", SPL:17.1)
(Among the sets 100m sculling and doggy paddle drills)

Power Set:
- Tethered swimming - 300 stokes with a 1.15 low frequency/gear stroke rate.
- 4x25m crawl, int:40" 90-95% effort (avg:15"50"', best:15", SPL:17.5) --->>> video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz3gAsFiCGc

Notes: I m wearing drag trunk in the workouts, it motivates me and increases my self-confidence. I am on my target pace now, hope everything will be fine in the Datca 5K race, 25th of February.

Sounds good NC. Are you doing the 3 usrpt sets with TT at a fixed stroke rate within the same session or do you swim them "unplugged"?

A curiosity: how does it feel to swim tethered? I never tried it, could it hurt feel for the water (if practiced for long) because you actually move the water around instead of anchor and move the body forward as in normal swimming? Also could the absence of the bow wave lead to a worse head position?

Salvo

i m setting tt @0.89 trying to obey it as much as i can , sometimes miss it 2-3 strokes per 25m in my current form level but i dont care about it, next time i become stronger and manage to keep that stroke rate.

As for the tethered swim, i m avoiding from lateral pulling, trying to keep my hands and elbows under and close to my torso as much as possible, trying to keep the tether rope strained dont let the rope slacken, this provides to get used to sustain the power i m doing this drill not more than 300-500 strokes in order not to loose concentration and get over-trained also not to get bored. Wish you happy laps:)

nightcrawler wrote:i m setting tt @0.89 trying to obey it as much as i can , sometimes miss it 2-3 strokes per 25m in my current form level but i dont care about it, next time i become stronger and manage to keep that stroke rate.

I like these numbers. I also like the approach of swimming with a stable DPS (+-1SPL) and vary only stroke rate depending on the pace. In my case, I recently found a sweet spot at 20SPL: this seems to be my most stable DPS from sprint to endurance pace. With this in mind, yesterday I did the following session with the goal of developing a sustainable 1:29/100m pace (for 400m in the short term, then for longer distances):

(900m warmup including easy swimming and some drills)
sets 1 & 2 to find the best gear:
set 1: 16x25 on :30 at 0.93/19SPL (time 20.46s, actual pace 1:29.28)
30s rest
set 2: 16x25 on :30 at 0.89/20SPL (time 20.47s, actual pace 1:29. Notes: this felt better than the previous gear, so I went on with this gear over progressively longer distances).
30s rest
set 3: 8x50 on :55 at 0.89/20SPL (time 42.72s, actual pace 1:29)
30s rest
set 4: 6x75 at 0.89/20SPL resting 20beeps or 18s (time 64.97s, actual pace 1:29)
rest: 50 easy bk
set 5: 4x100 on 1:50 at 0.89/20SPL (time 87.22s, actual pace 1:29)
rest: 100 easy bk
set 6: 16x25 at 0.89/20SPL resting 9beeps or 8s

I managed to hold steady SPL and steady pace, so it was a good "tuning" session. The next times I'll increase the volume (eg 20x75, 20x50 etc).

Cheers,
Salvo

Nice set, keep training Salvo.

Here are some photages from today morning session, there is a little snow dripping outside, so that the pool was empty again, Turks are lazy:)

Today's session:
Set1: 16*75m crawl int:75" with 1.5K pace (avg:60", best:58", SPL:17)
200m drill
Set2: 20*50m crawl int:50" with 1.5K pace (avg:39", best:36", SPL:17)
200m drill
Set3: 24*25m crawl int:25" with 1.5K pace (avg:18.5", best:17", SPL:17)
POWER SET: 4*25m int:40" with 100m pace (avg:15.5", best:15", SPL:17)

Except the power set all sets were with drag trunk.

Photages and greetings from Istanbul

Set3:
https://youtu.be/BvSexyOZNPM
https://youtu.be/xDsQx0svBHQ
https://youtu.be/d7naoBDSUks

Set1:
https://youtu.be/jkXbm7MnC0E

POWER SET:
https://youtu.be/QyIvbDs_RZk

The 1:20 pace looks very sustainable, very good. How was the transition from your almost no kick to a steady 6bk? Didn't you fatigue more in the beginning? Are you ever tempted to revert to 2bk when you feel taxed or does your 6bk feel as easy as a 2bk?

Salvo

Well Salvo,
Life is not of only blacks and whites or 1s and 0s  There are of course gray shades in every stroke. I am trying to hold the 6bk in every set in the pool but I have the confidence of doing 2bk or no-kick when I m fatigued. Do you think that SS's Shelly Taylor Smith, Mel Benson like swimmers always use 2bk, no, they are also very good kickers, and can boost 6bk- even 10bk whenever they want in a race, such world class swimmers can kick with a kickboard around 1:20 per 100m, if you dont believe, find and ask them. So classifying the swimmers such as he/she is 2 beat kicker or he/she is 6 beat kicker is wrong and amateurish!

I am regularly doing ankle band drill(swimming without kicking) among the sets and see that can hold the same SPL (used to swim with 18 spl 2 weeks ago and with 17 spl at the moment) by the help of core stability and hip rotation. It may bring in mind the question of "how can be hip rotation done without kicking?". Hip rotation can be done without kicking, i had proven/am proving/again can prove that kick has no effect on hip rotation.

One concept that new adult swimmers confuse:
"when you get faster your SPL increase", no, never! Like the wheel of a car spins same amount in all velocities the swimmer should have8and actually have) the same number of strokes per distance(lap - SPL) for each pace. I also did prove it many times. Look at my max speed in the video above, I have the same SPL with my 100m pace and 1.5K pace. Conclusion: Your SPL is determined not by your SR it is determined by your power, and armspan (DNA). TI guys confuse this so much!

One more discussion and conclusion that I can share is:
As I had told and shared my photages with no kick swimming 7-8 months ago in SS forum, kick is used for swimming 1-2 seconds faster for each lap (25m) and if you improve your fitness level(of course it may hurt in the beginning like every exercise), you can sustain that 6bk for 5K or above distances(i.e world class swimmers). If you want to budge from 4 seconds per 100m but at the same time save more energy for the further distances in opwn water, then you may choose not to kick anymore like I did in my previous successfull races. Now I have the intention of dropping my 5K's 100m pace from 1:20 to 1:16, thats why I am doing dryland exercises(manmakers, squads, lunges, stretch cords, assisted pullups, situps, leg raises, prone cobra, pushups, planks) and also kicking while training. For me it worths for 4 seconds gain in each 100m in 5K, and I guess it is gonna be my last credit (limit) for the improvement. I am 40 years old, I have 2-3 years for active sports life/efficient improvement (by efficient I mean 2-3 seconds 100m pace improvement for 5K) so that before I die I wanna see that I could swim 1:05 for a 5K.

In a 50m pool you should maintain 48 SPL with 1:00 SR and try to achieve 1:50 per 100m.

With this effort try doing the following sets at least 3 times a week:

30x100(target:1:50, SPL:48+48) int:2:15
if cannot, then first start with
50x50m(target:53, SPL:47) int:1:10

Nightcrawler, at the moment there is only 25m pool available. How would this set 30x100 translate to 25m? I could try it tomorrow morning.

Asking this again as it seems it got lost among the other posts in this thread.

Nightcrawler?

Thanks a lot.

for 25m pool you can do 2 sets, 5 minutes recovery between them, maybe drills or easy kicking or pulling exercises:

24*75m int:1:40 try to maintain 1:22 and 23 spl, tempotrainer@1:00
30*50m int:1:10 try to maintain 0:54 and 23 spl, tempotrainer@1:00

Thanks!
I will try this set this week, most probably on Fri or Sat.

Hi Adivio,

Fears are like illusions, they are the biggest barreers on our way. So, at the same time dont neglect and fear of doing 100 manmakers everyday, this will encourage you and give you extra power in the water. The below song and its lyrics is gonna help you to overcome hesitations if you have.

Never forget: "PAIN IS FOR A WHILE BUT THE GLORY IS FOREVER" (nightcrawler).

Go for it and get it! Never postpone your dreams, wish you all the best!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5LJxSHNArM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKksLSycLcI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r598V-UzcKI


THE BEST OF THE BEST MOVIE SONG(lyrics)

Someone loose someone must win,
Only the strong will survive.
Reach for the best you have within,
There is no compromise!

You have to stand up to fight,
When the challenge is right.
Throught the tears and the pain,
Still the glory remains!

You have the vision inside,
Put youself to the test,
The best of the best!
Be the best you can be,
The best of the best!

Don’t lose a faith
Don’t let them down
To many hearts on the line
Look straight ahead
To way your bound
Or things come with time...

We all need a winner
To make our dreams come alive
We all need a winner
So put yourself to the test
Be the Best of the Best!

Thanks again Nightcrawler! My "dream" for this year is marathon under 3h. Race will be end of May, training is going very well at the moment.

Swimming will be in maintenance mode this year. Then next year I will again participate in IM distance and then I want that better time for swimming (1h10min).

if you have any videos, send me, i can also comment on them to improve your technique

My pleasure, Nightcrawler
Bunch of 1 year old videos, originally posted in swimsmooth forum. I believe style is pretty much
same nowadays:

https://youtu.be/whQCMiFZWsc
https://youtu.be/4ZvjG5DnSEU
https://youtu.be/0ljMtQoSLXk
https://youtu.be/IxzyXE5cEWs

Adivio

Hi Adrian,

As far as i understand from your posts you have a very positive point of view, this is good for swimming, in pshychology there is a a quote: "Your thoughts have the power to change your DNA".
https://youtu.be/ylmwoJDYGjk

Many people believe that your DNA is what it is and cannot be modified; your genes remain the same throughout all your life. However, a number of scientific experiments have proven that DNA alteration is possible and that our perception of the environment changes the DNA.

The human brain is remarkable and what you can do with your mind is exceptional. Positive thoughts and emotions are extremely powerful and if you learn how to focus and use them, you can access your subconscious and induce a change in your DNA. This basically mean that you can influence your body, all the way down to the cells in your genes.

When considered, your positive point of view and love for the water which is also free from ego will make you successful, i believe it. You deseve it.

Now lets start to comment on your technique, i wont write all i see at once now, i want to emphasize on some major disorders.

1) you should take breat in every 3 strokes bilaterally, breathing in each 2 strokes is over from now on.

2) try to extend and glide more with hip rotation, maintain the same nice 6bk you are already doing.

After working on these 2 important points for 3 weeks you will probably reach 18 spl instead of 21-25 spl with same or 1-2 seconds improved time for lap. Send me another photage then, we will discuss again.

Nice laps.

Thanks Nightcrawler!

Don't know about the bilateral every 3rd. What I know for sure is that I need
all the oxygen I can get. I could perhaps try to use it during the slower swims.

And for the 2nd point, indeed, I should somehow lengthen my stroke but how to do it it's a mystery.

Hey NC, now that you reached your target pace for the 5k race, how do you estimate it will translate to open water (regardless of unpredictable water conditions of course)? For instance, did you try to replicate some of your sets on a 50m pool (and compare with 25m) to see how much turns and pushoffs count on your pace? Or, alternatively, did you measure your speed on the second half of a 25m pool (ie where the pushoff effect has vanished)?
I ask because I always had a hard time at estimating ow times starting from pool times.

Salvo

Hi Salvo,

Again too many questions with expecting a magic behind!  

Well, if you want it in detail, sustainable speed is affected by:
- Water temperature
- Respiration functionality (lung capacity and oxygen absorbtion capacity / oxygen puff out capacity of bronhials). This capacity is measured by Pulmonary Function Test(PFT).
- Oxygen & O2 Carrying Capacity of the blood.
- Carnosine levels in the muscles which can be found in both the two different muscle types in the body, but has higher concentration in the type two fibers, which are going to be more directed towards maximum strength and intensity exercises. In more detail; when high intensity exercise takes place though, our body begins to accumulate a large amount of hydrogen ions, which then causes the body to take on a more acid state. It's also this increase in hydrogen ions that will cause the lactic acid build-up in the body, which then will cause feelings of fatigue while exercising/racing and may eventually cause the event to cease entirely.
- Number and ratio(relatively to each other) of fiber types (Type I fibers, Type IIa fibers, Type IIb fibers).
- Mostly determined by heritage (GENETICS/DNA).
- Aerobic treahold level, the point where the lactic acid increases obviously - in contrary to SS's CSS decleration it is is not stable, CSS is also changing during the exercise moment.
- Wattage that your muscles can generate during the swim specific exercise.
...
...

These are that I learned in the courses and from the books. There is of course loads of reasons that I dont know even havent heard about...

So if you search you will reach deep in the endless ocean more and more, then you surely drown inside, never can find a proper answer, because mankind hasnt compeleted his evolution yet, when his brain cannot find the answers he imputes them to the God or still question in order to learn more, but believe it or not, it also wont help, because realities are more than we discover in the universe...  So that no need for reasoning and interpreting so much (we are weak and poor human). On the other hand, it is neither our subject nor business (even nor the business of the famous sales and marketing organizations like SS or TI). Real sport pshycologists and sport medicine are already dealing with these issues.

In this sense, yesterday I went to hospital for my regular check, they did blood tests and PFT. When compared with a month's ago my pulmonery function has developed 23% and all my blood values has become more near to their averages. Also giving up smoking and doing dry land cardio exercises affected this to a large extent. Also doctor checked my heart functions(ECG) and made a 15 min cardiac stress test. All fine!
My PFT: https://i.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/08/47/p_201710.jpg

Now, imagine that if you want to precisely measure your open water tempo, it will be a "rocket science", but on the other hand it is not easy as SS's CSS decleration, actually CSS is of no use according to my tests, I had proven this in SS forum and had become a bad guy since then, note that truth hurts!

In order to save from the rocket science and pull out from the "bog" i can give you a real life example of my way and you may decide what to do...

Today morning session(with drag trunk) that I did:

Warm up: Arm rolls on land
Set1: 16x75m crawl int:75" (average:59", best:55", AvgSR:0.93, AvgSPL:17)
Drills: 100m
Set2: 20x50m crawl int:50" (average:39", best:36", AvgSR:0.92, AvgSPL:17)
Drills: 100m
Set3: 24x25m crawl int:25" (average:18", best:16", SR:0.90, AvgSPL:17)
2 min break
Tests (with drag trunk):
1x100m crawl with 90%-95% effort, water start (01:05, SR:0.84, SPL:16)
1x50m crawl with 90%-95% effort, water start (00:32, SR:0.84, SPL:16)

For calculating my sustainable pace I like considering the worst cases, also in Set1-Set2-Set3 my average times are always one step behind my capabilities. All in all, I am using such a formula, you may not consider these below, it is my way, not a rule (so assume that you wont ask further more questions regarding the below).

Let;
BestAnaerobic : 100m pace with 95% effort (nearly maximum anaerobic capacity)
My BestAnaerobic = (1:05 +32)/1.5 = 1:03:50 (1:03 is my maximum aerobic capacity, which is maximum 100m pace that I can reach with my current anatomy. ie it is my 100m race result).

BestAerobic : Average of the best times in the sets (aerobic max capacity - VO2max)
My BestAerobic = (16+36+55)/1.5 = 71(1:11 , which is the highest sustainable 100m pace with that I can reach with my current anatomy. ie if I work well and gain a robust fitness level, I can maintain this pace in the distances over 400m).

BestAerobic/BestAnaerobic =71/65 = 1.09 ~ 1.10 = 10% diference.

Now we will use this coefficient for my humble sustainable pace calculation:
We will multipy the "Average Aerobic Set Times" by the half of this percentage (10% = 1.10, 5% = 1.05, 2.5%=1.025) succeedingly. (i.e for 25ms *1.10, for 50ms 1.05, for 75ms 1.025).

When this workout session is considered;
SUSTAINABLE_PACE_OF_NIGHTCRAWLER  = (18*1.10+39*1.05+59*1.025)/1.5 = 80,3 ~ 1:21

I dont do any tests in 50m pool, because swimming in 50m pool is boing for me, i dont take any pleasure. 25m pool gives me information I need, so I havent done and not doing any comparisons. The more data complexity the more entropy! On the other hand, I am not professional enough to deserve swimming in 50m pool

PS:
Salvo, you are a big Opportunist, you showed it again. Noone has given me such a diamond information (summarized, like a medicine pill) about swimming, now you are indepted to me 1 billion euros   Indeed, swimmers dont think so much(look at Sun Yang, Paltrinieri, M.Phelps, Thorpe, etc they have free minds and relaxed, they dont have swimming photos or dialogues in their social media pages as much as us), swimmers dont look at the encyclopedia full of with useless information for them, again i am saying that dont take these above as a rule. For your progress I can recommend you to swim more and spend your energy for practice more than you think. You will find better answers and gain more info while practicing than wasting time on reading the personal rules, swimming will provide you this.

But according to your post I'd say you think more than me

As far as I understand from the maths above (but I may be missing something), this final 1:21 pace doesn't take into account that you don't turn&pushoff in open water. I had asked you a question only about this subject, call it "swimming speed" vs "turn&pushoff speed": pool times are the combination of the 2 components, while open water times obviously aren't affected by the second component.
No problem anyway, if not that at the moment I don't have 1 billion euros cash

Salvo