Re: Stroke Length

by Tom65 Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:49 pm

Adivio wrote:I think I found some good example of what I'm trying to say. Check jono van hazel video below. In the right down corner it has
SPL and DPS and speed per 100m. The SPL goes from 56 for the slowest speed in the video (1:15 per 100) all the way to 95 SPL for 0:43/100m. Interestingly, DPS stays the same, 32-33 strokes per 50m for every speed.

If I take this and apply it to my speeds, does it make any sense for me to go over 75 for a mere 1:35 per 100? Or for the 1:50-2:00 in IM races? Am I not more than Ok with 60 (my natural SPL) for these kinds of speeds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs

And then searching on internet this topic, one of the first article is this (by Gerry Rodrigues):
http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2016/04/11/improve-your-swim-cadence.

Gerry R. wrote:What we see with most Olympic distance elite athletes is a high turnover rate. The problem is that turnover rate at this sharp end often appears low because many athletes are extremely polished in their strokes. This is similar to watching fast marathon runners, who look smooth and appear to be gliding along, yet will still be running at 180 strides per minute. It just doesn’t look like it because it’s poetry in motion and this is the same for many elite triathletes in the water.

At the sharp end, cadence rates don’t appear as high but most are over 80 strokes per minute, and some, like the Brownlee brothers for example, are closer to 100. I helped coach Eva Fabian for a while, who’s a 5K open water world champion, and she swam at over 100 strokes per minute when she raced 5K and 10K open water events.

Again elites swimming at their top speed. And the debunked ideal 180 cadence for runners is also here .
How can this apply to us?

Gerry R. wrote:Most age group triathletes are in the 60 strokes per minute range, which is much lower.
Yes, it is much lower because speed is so much lower.

You're mixing up the terminology.

by **Adivio** Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:48 am

Tom wrote:You're mixing up the terminology.

Hi Tom,
Can you be more specific?
Adrian

by s.sciame Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:08 am

SPL = strokes per length
DPS = distance per stroke
SL = stroke length
SPM = strokes per minute
SR = stroke rate

So SPL is about stroke length, not about cadence.

Salvo

by **Adivio** Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:59 am

Yes, sorry. I meant SPM instead of SPL. And strokes per length when saying DPS.
What I said is still valid though.

by cottmiler Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:16 am

courtesy of zenturtle on T.I

How to build a long stroke in young swimmers, BUT ....

https://youtu.be/Vco6qGTSQ48

......listen to the last sentance!

by Tom65 Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:05 am

cottmiler wrote:courtesy of zenturtle on T.I

How to build a long stroke in young swimmers, BUT ....

https://youtu.be/Vco6qGTSQ48

......listen to the last sentance!

Looks like a good plan for me.

by SA Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:19 am

When I swim long and slow for a while it becomes impossible to speed up suddenly for overtaking someone or whatever.
Thats because swimming long with a lot of extension gets in conflict with having the paddle facing backward.
When going slow moving the paddle from horizontal to vertical happens slow with not much resistance. If the rate its increased this action requires more force and precise control which is not there anymore, leading to pressing down and ruining the rest of the stroke.
Very hard work with little effect.
The only way to snap out of it is shortening the stroke at the front to achieve a vertical paddle earlier.
THis requires some gente pushdown right from the entry.
Its basically a technique thing that has to be there always. Only at a low strokerate the pressing down over a ball is very light. When swimming faster pushing those fingers over the ball to the bottom of the pool requires more effort. Even to the extend you want to use bodyweight to push that arm down.
Mr Snooth nasters this continuous connection with the water very very well.
its really a part of achieving solid strokelenght that doesnt collaps under pressure.

this little tip is spot on;
http://www.dobkanize.com/swimming-tips/improving-your-freestyle-catch/

Its a small but important difference.
Not so much about the bubbles, but more about the curvature the arm makes rolling over the ball instead of shooting the arm under it, like a lot of TI people are doing.

by cottmiler Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:17 pm

The video on this supposedly shows the perfect stroke. Closer viewing shows the "loping stroke style" with almost catch up on one side and differential body roll. There is extra stretch foward on the right hand side.

Nevertheless, the length of the underwater stroke is phenomenal.

http://www.enjoy-swimming.com/how-to-swim-freestyle.html

by SA Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:24 pm

Whats often forgotten and whats my latest pet subject is what the upperbody is doing to put power behind the precise described arm movements.
All these precise arm movements mean nothing if the basic driving action isnt there. (give the baby a big paddle)
Remember Solar talking about Harry Wiltshires stroke?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1wnu0xzvjo
How he sinks his opponent with his armstrokeamd thats how he basically swims.
Imaginge what you are doing between feet and shoulder to load your weight on the water or a swimmer this way.
This action together with shoulder extension and pulling and twisitng the shoulder back later. This, while keeping the body as aligned as possible which is some sort of personal compromise.
The pushing down component of the body on the arm (not when arm is extended) is not exactly backward so its not ideal in theory, but the power that can be realeased by this action far offsets that negative point.
For theoretical perfectionist overthinkers like me it was difficult to start using this action because I didnt wanted to push water down,so I didnt allow myself to do it, but all swimmers use this action more or less.
If you have very flexible shoulders and can grab a lot of water way upfront you are pushing less water down and travel super straight, but you are loosing some of this inner body power.
To be precise, there are 2 ways to push water down.
- Only with an isolated arm
- With you bodyweight on it on an downangled arm thats grounded firmly in the upperbody.

its a lot like how a loper lands on the arm on one side.
By adding shoulder rotation on a stable platform you can achieve partly the same effect on both sides with lttle up and down bounce keeping the shoulders rolling smooth and swapping between landings in a rotational way.
You want the landings to be soft and smooth, tranlating to an efficient backward push with that good arm mechanics like driving gently to not loose traction in snow.
Its crazy that everybody talks about the arm details (which are important eventually, not rowing with a puny paddle), but nobody eplaims exacly whats happening inside the body.
Only some mystical stuff about hip drive etc.
A real missed opportunity for swim coaches. I am amazed that I have to discover this all myself while trying to understand what these swim coaches exactly mean.

And about strokelength,
Here is a typical 6Bk swimmer who is keeping his 6BK armtiming while using a 2BK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3XhpiDEdJw
He is used to the long strokes but that doesnt combine so well with his 2BK
Looks like hard worrk, and his arm isnt ready for pulling when he kicks. He has to go to catch a bit earllier.

With a 6BK its all more matched, but the little boy almost catches up with him at the end. The little boy has a different arm timing with some weight on his catch which you can see from his slight bounce from the start.
The boys stroke looks lighter than the guy with the long stroke. Does it take a bit too much strength? dont know. For some it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiFewXKbzM0

by Tom65 Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:22 am

Had a play in the pool today.

25's were 24spl done a couple without taking a breath and they were 20 spl so decided breathing must be causing drag or shortened strokes, swam a couple of 22spls after that breathing 4 and 3.

After getting too hot I went out to the too cold outdoors 50, swam 4 laps just trying to keep it neat, then counted strokes for a moderate pace lap, got 58spl, decided to up the spm on the way back and got 54spl.
Always a chance I miscounted, but it remains true to what I feel.

Guess kicking is going to be a significant part of this, obviously I up my kick when I go faster.

by **Adivio** Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:10 pm

cottmiler wrote:courtesy of zenturtle on T.I

How to build a long stroke in young swimmers, BUT ....

https://youtu.be/Vco6qGTSQ48

......listen to the last sentance!

Ok so first increasing the stroke length and then being able to hold it for higher SPM.
This matches what jono does. He basically has same stroke count per 50m for the entire range of speeds in the posted video.

by SA Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:47 pm

have you aver tried to copy jonos arm and shoulder movement on dryland in front of a mirror?
Probably it looks pathetic compared to this guys stroke in the water.
I am still working to get the same effortless dryland straight arm windmilling feeling into the dryland proper armstroke. (plenty of people already have trouble doing relaxed straight arm windmilling)
Very hard to keep it all moving in a relaxed way and still include high elbow catch stuff in the movement.
It gets jerky very easy going to the optimal swim movement.
Flexible shoulders and upper trunk are great assets for swimmers!

by **Adivio** Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:54 pm

Haven't dared to try Smile

. I am focusing on lower body flexibility, remember?
As per Ducky advice.

For me the most magic part of the video is the view from ahead up front, you can
see how his head is dead straight and body moves around the axis like being on ball bearings or something.

by **Mike A** Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:59 pm

Since this discussion thread started taking shape, I've been consciously counting my strokes quite a bit. I think the stats from my swim watch are somewhat misleading. Perhaps I'm taking fewer strokes because I'm more conscious of it, or maybe the watch just isn't that realiable - but I'm finding typically I'm taking about 23 or 24 strokes per length, and sometimes get down to 21 or 22. Still above the green zone, but much closer than I thought.

The enemies of stroke length are poor body position and over-rotation/head lifting in the breathing cycle, plus any kind of dropped elbow or weak catch/pull. The friend of stroke length is 6-beat kicking (or rather, in my case, 3-beat fill-in kicks on the breathe phase).

by SA Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:39 pm

I stll find this a cool looking party trick .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DNDkGkhV1A
And he doesnt kick much....

by s.sciame Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:02 pm

Mike A wrote:I'm finding typically I'm taking about 23 or 24 strokes per length, and sometimes get down to 21 or 22. Still above the green zone, but much closer than I thought.

21-22 is good Mike, much better than 28. I wouldn't be too concerned with the green zone though. I'm recently finding a sweet spot at 20SPL, which for my height would be slightly above the green zone, and however it works better than 16-19. By sweet spot I mean that 20SPL is where I currently perform at my best either on long/steady sets and on fast swimming. For instance today I did a Red Mist and then some fast 25's and 50's all at steady 20SPL. Only stroke rate changed, from 61-62SPM in the Red Mist, to 80SPM in the fast 25's and 50's, but DPS was always the same and only at 20SPL I can keep that kind of steadiness.

Salvo

by swimcoachingblogger Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:36 pm

This thread was hurting my head. The trick to stroke length is this; where your hand enters it should also exit.

The video of the chap doing '2BK' in the rain, was not proper 2BK, he was only kicking downward not upward, the upward phase is improtant because it also keeps the hips and body rotating correctly, like you do when you march like a soldier.

In the video of the two oriental swimmers, which was a nice contrast of strokes, you will have seen that the boy that had the long catch-up stroke changed his style as he sped up and at the very end did a more 'windmill' style. It would be hard to read more into it without more split times and I think that the boy saw the other chap catching up and choked.

by SA Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:56 am

The trick to stroke length is this; where your hand enters it should also exit. wrote:

You can achieve this by pulling hard with relative much slippage on the actual pull and glide a long time between these hard pulls (beginner TI style), or stroke in more continuous manner , more gradual pressure on the arms and faster catch/less glide, achieving the same result (Swim smooths Mr smooth).
I rather have a strokelength based on true traction than one based on extended glide.

A strokelength based on true traction (during the pull) has a strokelength that doesnt collapse as much at increased speed.

by SA Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:06 pm

Our deutsche freund sagt the same as was said before about ocean walker technique , he uses more prerssure at the push phases to overcome the decelerations betweem strokes. Swimming in a higher gear.
Its not advised to copy this style if you want to achieve your maximal efficient swimspeed.
http://holgerluening.de/2017/01/03/vorsicht-bei-der-auswahl-der-beispiel-videos/

by nightcrawler Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:49 pm

Didnt understand anything, over the water how he could see the decelerations in the push phase? Adam is trying to show there a beautiful and relaxed stroke (which seems like TI) so he should push genlte than the first choppy style in order to seem elegant and attractive.

by **Mike A** Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:01 pm

The problem with the observation about hand entry/exit location is that it's not much use to the swimmer in the pool. Obvious from the pool deck, but from the perspective of the swimmer, he really has no reference points to work from.

But consider this: for the propulsive phase of the pull/push, the hand's end point must be further back in the water than the start point (the laws of physics say it can't be otherwise). So for the hand to exit at (or in front of) the point of entry, the backwards movement of the propulsive phase must be offset by the forward drive of the hand/body after entry.

There are three components to this drive:-
1) the forward movement of the hand relative to the rest of the body (i.e. as the arm straightens and shoulder extends)
2) the inertial forward momentum of the whole body through the water ("glide")
3) the forward propulsive force from the pull/push of the opposite hand

The first component only makes a very small contribution, unless the hand entry is very close to the shoulder. We can easily see how the other two depend on the stroking style. An inefficient "overglider" will get their long stroke mainly from 2) whereas an efficient swimmer will get it mainly from 3).

by nightcrawler Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:32 pm

It is not rocket science or a magic. I can swim 100m free 1:20 by both 17x4=68 strokes and 4x20=80 strokes(by applying less power) with different stroke rates. In the video you can see the difference in his stroke rate, that's it.

by SA Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:03 pm

But you have to press harder on the water when using the higher DPS Style. Why cant you swim 14 strokes/25 at 1.20 pace?
His head moves about half a head forward and backward during his flat stroke and more than twice that amount in his long stroke. Thats accelerating and decelerating. Nobody knows for sure if better streamline compensates for this disadvantage and if the higher muscle force, lower stroke rate is more efficient.

Google translate is getter better and better:
On my three-part video series on the subject of "gliding" (click for part 1) I received many positive feedbacks. Especially because many beginners have made it clear that a good swimmer can actually show off the abstrusest technology models at relatively low speeds and can also claim with a greatly reduced number of pulls that it is an advantageous technique. Please, therefore, look closely at such clips.

One of these types is the clip of an English long-distance swimmer, which can be seen below, with its own technique. First, it must be noted that there is no own technique. Just as in this example, it is simply a different procedure. Because at a speed of 1.30min / 100m, this type of technology is easy for many swimmers to cope with. However, the sole statement on the number of trains does not in any way indicate the effectiveness of this swimming demonstration. Are there any qualitative evidence (time, heart rate, effort, longer distance, fast swimming, etc.)? No, not a single one. From a scientific perspective, this demonstration is therefore completely worthless.

Looking closely, the trained eye recognizes above all that the force application in the pressure phase is significantly greater with a lower number of pulls. As we have to use significantly more power for the same distance (which is absolutely logical) than at a higher speed, we have to expect a sudden fatigue with the seemingly effortless technique - similar to cycling on the mountain - but with a low "number of revolutions".

Conclusion: Do not just look at the video DRAUF, but IN the video HINEIN and you recognize the chewing packs, which promise a lot but little hold.

Therefore: PLEASE DO NOT FOLLOW!

I dont care what style you swim, but claiming that one style is better than another without any proof isnt very convincing.
Different folks , different strokes.

And is this swimming flat?
Stroke Length - Page 2 23kf59s

Tjfry, has the same opinion as Sea Walker. Also is a good swimmer who doesnt like shorter shoulder driven strokes. Everything he says here completely describes my latest experience with more shoulder rotation and the effect on kick timing. When you are used to one style the other style feels very weird. Doesnt prove anything, but its sure these 2 stroke styles are almost 2 different strokes.
http://badig.com/2015/07/the-timing-of-the-2-beat-kick/

by nightcrawler Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:09 am

First of all, I am not an advocate of Adam Walker, and also I consider his technique useless for myself, I dont have long arms and hands like him, tried TI and Ocean Walker many times, also I met Adam Walker in Marmaris race in October 2016, had chance to observe him while swimming in the 1500m ow race there, and as a result swimming with long strokes didnt suit me. I wrote some comments below your remarks with bold and red letters.

SA wrote:But you have to press harder on the water when using the higher DPS Style. Why cant you swim 14 strokes/25 at 1.20 pace?

Who told that I have 14 SPL? I cant swim 25m with 14 strokes due to my arm span(1.78m) my SPL range is 16-20. I can swim the same pace with applying different amount of power whilist pulling both by using 16 and 20 strokes per lap. Or faster with the same stoke rate and with the same SPL, SPL in other words DPS depends on power as well as the technique. Here is the proof, 4x25m with 90-95% VO2Max pace at the end of today's training session interval:40", SPL:17.5, avg pace 15.50 for each 25m with the same Push Off Wall(meters) like I do in my regular 5K sets, the only difference makes me here faster is the power thay I apply to the water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz3gAsFiCGc

My natural SPL is 17.5 now for 1:20 pace for 5K. I can maintain the same stroke length (SPL:17.5) but my pace is 1:02/100m here(my average 25ms is 15"50"'). Whatsmore, Ican maintain the same SPL(means same DPS) for different range of stroke rates such as 1.00-0.70, my strokes per lap(again note that this means DPS - in other words stroke lenght you call it) is again around 17.5 with the same push of the wall. I am managing this by applying more power, so that it is not sustainable, I can sustain this 17.5 SPL for 5K in the strokes rates above 0.90 and this means 0.90*50*{4*(3BeepsPushOff + 17.5BeepsForStokes + 2BeepsForTurn)} = 67.5 minutes = 1:07:30 for 5K (1:20 pace) and it is actually like that for me!

Adam's rotational technique here may not be sustainable(we dont know, may/may not be?) but if he can work on this he can make it sustainable(we also dont know this, his training effect and will show this).

His head moves about half a head forward and backward during his flat stroke and more than twice that amount in his long stroke. Thats accelerating and decelerating. Nobody knows for sure if better streamline compensates for this disadvantage and if the higher muscle force, lower stroke rate is more efficient.

You cant observe the efficency in an endless pool, we need to see more data, i.e his underwater movements, difference in his steamline, catch and pull mechanics and differecence in the count strokes per lap. He has no underwater photage, I havent seen yet.

Google translate is getter better and better:
On my three-part video series on the subject of "gliding" (click for part 1) I received many positive feedbacks. Especially because many beginners have made it clear that a good swimmer can actually show off the abstrusest technology models at relatively low speeds and can also claim with a greatly reduced number of pulls that it is an advantageous technique. Please, therefore, look closely at such clips.

One of these types is the clip of an English long-distance swimmer, which can be seen below, with its own technique. First, it must be noted that there is no own technique. Just as in this example, it is simply a different procedure. Because at a speed of 1.30min / 100m, this type of technology is easy for many swimmers to cope with. However, the sole statement on the number of trains does not in any way indicate the effectiveness of this swimming demonstration. Are there any qualitative evidence (time, heart rate, effort, longer distance, fast swimming, etc.)? No, not a single one. From a scientific perspective, this demonstration is therefore completely worthless.

His technique is not the same as in this video in ow races, I observed him in the races. If you watch his ow clips carefully, you can see that he is changing his stroke as the distance progresses and gets tired.

Looking closely, the trained eye recognizes above all that the force application in the pressure phase is significantly greater with a lower number of pulls. As we have to use significantly more power for the same distance (which is absolutely logical) than at a higher speed, we have to expect a sudden fatigue with the seemingly effortless technique - similar to cycling on the mountain - but with a low "number of revolutions".

Conclusion: Do not just look at the video DRAUF, but IN the video HINEIN and you recognize the chewing packs, which promise a lot but little hold.

Therefore: PLEASE DO NOT FOLLOW!

You cant deduce a conslusion like this which is far from paractice, without trying seing and comparing. Swimming is trying and finding, learning is realized by seeing, hearing, applying and if necessary using unless forsaking. Without trying and seeing we cant say anything, also it may result in a different way in various methabolisms even in the same species/or even in twins. There is no only one truth in swimming for every person, as ninja swimmer's or Janet Evan's techique even a weird technique may suit us.

See the pace of the same species of sea creatures, they are different:
Penguins:
-Emperor penguin: 7.5 km/s
-Gentoo penguin: 36 km/s
Sharks:
-Great White: 40 km/s
-Mako Shark: 50 km/s
-Tiger Shark: 32 km/s
Marlins:
-Striped Marlin: 81km/s
-Swordfish: 97 km/s
-Sailfish: 110 km/s

I dont care what style you swim, but claiming that one style is better than another without any proof isnt very convincing.
Different folks , different strokes.

I only believe in scientifically approved things, such as the USRPT workout system I do. For me, there is no science behind the scenes here, only using more rotation(or may call spending more time for the extension) and at the same time applying more power to show less strokes per 30 seconds here in his video. Just it, no more, not rocket science, even there is no considerable science behind the scenes. As I shared my 4x25m video above, he is following the same tactic, not only increasing the ROTATION but also making an ILLUSION by applying more POWER to hold the same pace with less SPL, any experienced coach or a practicer can realize this easily

I tried Ocean Walker technique, also Janet Evan's, Jono Hazel's, TI swimmers' and many more techniques... all in all I found the most suitable technique for myself, it is unique for me like everyone's unique for everyone.

And is this swimming flat?

We cant say wholly flat but more flat when compared with the second technique. As a result both are holy sh*t for me, his classment is not higher than mine. First of all it is his all day work, living in a civilized pioneer sea-and-sailing-discoveries-oriented-country where swimming/rowing/sailing is essential, he has big hands, legs and arms also 2.00m high, in contrast, I am working in a full time job and trying to swim in my spare times in a 3rd world country which is in his history has been dealing with terror, immigrants and religious bullsh*ts all the time instead of science and art, I have smaller hands and legs and my height is 1.78m, but as a result we are in the same category swimmers who are swimming with a pace between 1:10 and 1:20. Indeed, in marmaris 4x300m relay race I swim almost the same pace(my 3:50 and his 3:43) with him although I was smoking and not training at that time, had just put my cigarette on the table jumped to the water, raced with a full stomach of beer. When taking it all round, i am more successful than him in this case!

Tjfry, has the same opinion as Sea Walker. Also is a good swimmer who doesnt like shorter shoulder driven strokes. Everything he says here completely describes my latest experience with more shoulder rotation and the effect on kick timing. When you are used to one style the other style feels very weird. Doesnt prove anything, but its sure these 2 stroke styles are almost 2 different strokes.
http://badig.com/2015/07/the-timing-of-the-2-beat-kick/

If you want to criticize smthing, criticize whether Ocean Walker technqiue wheter sustainable. I can give you the answer, because I met with him and saw his swimming closely, the answer is no, he is not using this technique in the whole race distance We had participated in the same race in Marmaris Aqua Masters Tournament October 2016:
https://i.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/08/47/544ad110.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/08/47/474e8b10.jpg

by SA Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:41 am

You can observe the effect of the pulling and kicking on the body in an endlless pool without seeing what happens underwater, At keast its effect on swimspeed.
The forward-backward movement in an endless pll is a direct representation of the varuation in swimspeed during the stroke.
We all know breastroke is slow and has a lot of variation in speed, yet Chloe Suttons head forward and backward movement is also about one head in that inefficient breaststroke, tha same as Walkers movement in freestyle.
Thats not using the advantages of freestyle optimally: the possibility to minimize peaks in propulsion and drag..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gw8tbkhKgo

With the best swimmers, their head stays much better at one place, holding constant speed, even when using long strokes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShRCLmAvhQc

Whats the conclusion regarding optimal strokelength?

- make strokes as long as possible , until your speed starts to vary too much.

That means getting optimal traction during strokes and making smooth transitions,
(together with lowest drag to minimize decelerations during transitions)

How do you know your speed is constant?
If you swim slow you dont feel much water resistance.
Faster swimming or adding resistance makes variations in speed much easier to detect.(as long as your effort isnt so high that you are only surviving)
Towing a boat is a very good training looking at it from this point.

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