Broken Arrow Drill

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Broken Arrow Drill

Post by cottmiler on Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:09 am

As I was struggling with this drill, a closer look at videos shows that the exiting hand must have the palm facing backwards.

My antipodean friend demo’s this here :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7L-GKLJ0Jw

It seems that fins are needed which partly explains my difficulty.

His arm action reminded me of Manadou at 2 mins 10 sec in.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmsBFZSib8A

Doing Broken Arrow this morning was much better with the palm facing back but generally the drill seems very challenging at the moment. I have no doubt that it will be another step forward when I can do it.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by Sprinter on Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:10 pm

What do you want to gain from that drill?
To what "question" or "problem" of your swimming does it answer?
Do you have some (personal!) evidence that it helps you with your *swimming*?

I have my doubts about that drill.
Who knows, for whom it means what ...
Therefore I am asking.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by cottmiler on Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:24 pm

Just as an airline pilot practices his skills to perfection, I feel that if my drill is not feeling right then I know the overall swim action is deficient somehow.

It is good for loosening off tight shoulders and upper back.


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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by Sprinter on Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:08 pm

cottmiler wrote:Just as an airline pilot practices his skills to perfection,  I feel that if my drill is not feeling right then I know the overall swim action is deficient somehow.

But that is a triviality: for the rest of your life, your swimming will be deficient.
(And the "skills of Broken Arrow" have no direct relation to swimming, unlike the situation of the pilot -- isolation of aspects changes the whole swimming, the human body is not a robotic body.)

The point is to find out the right point of attack, in the current situation -- and once we found some good points of attacks, and attacked them (somewhat!) successfully, then the situation changes, and we need to look out again.

I think that the believe in some absolute truths for swimming is a dangerous fiction, especially for older swimmers: there isn't much knowledge out there!
So I think that every drill can be harmful. And I furthermore believe that the likelihood of doing harm with a drill increases with its age (how long we are doing it): the drill starts its life on its own!

So if you have a target and check the target constantly, then the drill can be useful. Without that, like any kind of administration, it will want to rule (and any drill is like administration -- it pretends to help you, by taking the real thing away from you; our current world is characterised by the growing power of administration over the real).

For the Broken Arrow, I guess the extreme swimming on the side can become dangerous. And also the unnatural vertical rest position: initially, it will create some positive stress on your body position, but after some time, it will become part of the expectation, part of the "natural swimming".

As a counter-measure, it seems useful to me to only do one length at most of a drill at a time, then do one normal length, and then repeat this cycle. There should always be the engagement with the full stroke, the feedback, the reflection, in my opinion.

At
http://lbtri.uk/training/swimming/swim-drills
they write

 - This drill is designed for swimmers with tight upper backs and shoulders to help you loosen off
 - It helps you relax your arm and shoulder while recovering over the top of the water, it enables you to focus on how your hand is entering the water

But I think that all vanishes over time, and it becomes a goal on its own (which then becomes detrimental to swimming).

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by cottmiler on Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:16 pm

I suppose one either believes in drills or one doesn't.

Here the idea is to draw the shoulder blades together more when swimming. The 6-1-6 and Broken Arrrow develop this (1 minute in) but then the challenge is to transfer it to one's normal stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJMZJGcOabo

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by Sprinter on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:10 pm

cottmiler wrote:I suppose one either believes in drills or one doesn't.
Actually, I think it is not a question of "believing", but of reason and detail.
And of psychology: there is certainly a mindset to whom drills are very appealing (and then the task is to avoid the danger of over-drilling and under-swimming), and there is the mindset to whom drills are not appealing at all (and here the task is to use the drills in clever way).

cottmiler wrote:I
Here the idea is to draw the shoulder blades together more when swimming.  The 6-1-6 and Broken Arrrow develop this (1 minute in)  but then the challenge is to transfer it to one's normal stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJMZJGcOabo
The problem I see here is that you pull the shoulder blades together when basically being vertical in the water, and I don't see how that translates into swimming.

That video "Swimming: The Press Stud Visualisation" I actually found quite helpful (when it came out): A basic problem for me is that the left arm breaks out sideways, and there it helps a lot to squeeze the shoulder blades together. For me it seems very important to initialise this with a really good stream-line for the push-off (bringing the upper arms with the streamline as close as possible, with a good deal of force -- that helps with the rest of the lane).
But I don't see how for me here any drill could be useful: I know how to do it, the problem is just to actually do it -- always.

By the way, another difference with psychology: While I assume there are people where these typical SwimSmooth visualisation like "press stud" work, to me that says nothing, and I need it "concretely", as precisely what's going on and as a muscle feeling. I imagine that has to do with me being a mathematician by profession (theoretical computer scientist), with a "theory-creating" mindset (not "problem-solving"), and then I think one must speak out abstract relations directly, while images are in the way. I imagine that to people whose daily work is not related to abstract entities, such visualisations appeal, while to people whose daily work is related to abstractions these visualisations are not appealing (their mindset in the abstract is "too concrete").

As I mentioned somewhere else, I am doing currently a somewhat related drill, that "sail boat". Always alternating 25m drill and 25m real swimming. For the warm-up phase, there is a *measurable* difference between the 25m's before and after those drills (quite a bit faster!). But compared to the drills above, there is no sideways-swimming, and the kick is very important. Perhaps that's for me the main point of the sail boat: it naturally activates the propulsive kick (which needs a strong and somewhat special connection through the core). And it also allows a special form of concentration for the pull. That pause right before the arm entry accentuates these processes. And I have the problem of late breathing, and that drill then allows to always complete (quickly) the breathing with the arm still in the air.

To me that drills seems much more natural than the broken arrow: the sail-boat is just ordinary swimming, with an artificial interruption to make you fully aware of its components. To me all those broken-arrows, 6-1-6 etc. with their emphasise on the extreme swimming on the side never connected with my swimming (I did quite a few SwimSmooth clinics and 1-1 sessions -- it never stuck, always seemed artificial to me).
EXCEPT for the (pure) kicking on the side: but here again it is the (very) hard kicking (without fins, of course Very Happy ) which is important. There is a difference of 10% in speed between the two sides: Besides the left arm, my right leg is problematic, and if that legs is the lower leg, then I am slow -- I guess I bend at the hip (the main problem with the right leg seems to be the weak up-kick!).

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by cottmiler on Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:26 am

Here is Chloe Sutton showing us the Sailboat Drill:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfSiEykvx5M


Chloe made the Olympic team in the pool and open water and is worth watching/listening to I reckon.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:39 am

Hi everyone,
I again want to remind you Prof. Dr. Brent Rushall's remarks:

“Train” your drills.

“Doing” drills doesn’t improve stroke technique and doesn’t foster faster swimming.

You might read the statement above and think it falls in line with USRPT articles, which call stroke drills “harmful and irrelevant” (at least for elite swimmers). But no, here you may find Brent Rushall's attempt to salvage drills from being considered “harmful and irrelevant” and instead identify how to implement them effectively.

“Ultra-Short Race-Pace Training” (USRPT) advocates the exclusion of drills and equipment. While many programs could benefit from moving partway in that direction, the extreme that USRPT advocates may not be ideal for most: it rejects the use of kickboards, fins, paddles, etc. as well as stroke drills in training. Taking a more nuanced position, it should be argued that “doing” drills but in favor of “training” drills.

“Ultra-Short Race-Pace Training” (USRPT) advocates the exclusion of drills and equipment. While many programs could benefit from moving partway in that direction, the extreme that USRPT advocates may not be ideal for most: it rejects the use of kickboards, fins, paddles, etc. as well as stroke drills in training.

Yes, you “did” one-arm freestyle, but HOW did you do it? To what end? What was the timing of your breath within the stroke cycle? Was your kick strong and fast throughout? Was your nose pointed at the bottom of the pool when you initiated the catch? [Coaches, was each and every swimmer in the water performing the drill in a way that will effect the particular stroke changes you want to see?]

“doing” drills sporadically without sufficient repetition to effect motor learning.

Yes, you “did” the drill, but when did you revisit it? A few weeks later (rather than almost every day)? Doing a drill a few times a season won’t effect motor learning. Without thousands of stroke cycles over an extended period of time, the drill will have no effect on muscle memory programming and thus no effect on your racing stroke.

“doing” drills without sufficient speed and application of force to translate into racing.

Yes, you “did” single-double butterfly drill, but did you apply the same force with each pull that you would in a race? Was the tempo of your kick/stroke cycle the goal tempo for your races? Did your kicks have the speed and force you’re training to race with? Was your head position consistent throughout with the position you want in your race?

“doing” drills without enough attention to the essential aspects of the drill that effect particular outcomes in the stroke (the actual changes you want to see in your racing stroke)

Yes, you “did” breaststroke with a flutter kick, but was your catch explosive? Did you hide your head between your arms when you extended them? Did you whip through the top of the stroke to the extension in the blink of an eye?

“doing” drills and then UNDOING them by swimming full stroke with your old technique the rest of practice (or the next day)

Yes, you “did” a particular freestyle drill to effect a particular change in your stroke, but then did you come back the next day and warm up with poor technique that most likely just reinforced all your old bad habits, undoing any progress the drill had set you toward?



The better alternative is “TRAINING” drills.

“Training” drills means sticking with a drill for more than a month, training it (nearly) every day for thousands of stroke cycles to program muscle memory.

“Training” drills means ensuring your technique is correct, which means you and your coach must know exactly which aspects of the drill effect which outcomes in your racing stroke; then, perform the drill with exacting, unfailing precision every stroke cycle.

“Training” drills means performing them at full speed/tempo with the same timing as your racing stroke and the same explosive force with which you sprint.

“Training” drills means you don’t UN-train them, which means ensuring the technique developed by the drill translates into your full stroke every time you swim it in practice. This means avoiding long, slow swims of full-stroke that leave too much room for bad habits to resurface. Slow swimming begets slow swimming. Water is elastic: if you don’t apply explosive force, you slip through the water and it becomes forgiving of stroke mistakes / bad habits. When you’re “training” drills to effect changes in your strokes, be judicious about when and how you train the full stroke. Make each lap count. Know the purpose and find the value in each lap. Protect your progress.


NOTE: "Water is elastic: if you don’t apply explosive force, you slip through the water and it becomes forgiving of stroke mistakes / bad habits". Also note that this remark is throwing the TI and Ocean Walker's elegant&gentle swimming techniques into trash Very Happy  If you want to swim fast, you must be robust, harsh, agile, strong and hard; that is the key. For example: when I want to swim the 400m 5:06 (instead of 5:30) I am increasing my strokes per lap from 18 to 20, transforming from gentle stroke to choppy punchy stroke with less rotation.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:05 pm

More to say:
http://wgaquatics.com/2015/05/04/power-and-pressure-improving-your-distance-per-stroke-and-swimming-performance-by-improving-your-feel-of-the-water/








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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by SA on Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:33 pm

its all rather relative.
If you can swim 60 seconds per 100, your 1 min 10/100m will look gracefull and effortless.
But before you can swim 60 sec/100 you have to train crappy looking strokes at the end of you posibilities.

If you can hold a good paddle during your stroke, you can apply a lot of force on it before the tyres start slipping. it isnt so sensitive to faulty pressure application and timing errors.

NC what muscles start to resist doing the wanted movements first in your stroke?

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:38 am

In that article rather than the relativity, focusing on power and pressure points. First of all one should learn where and how to apply power, in order to learn this first need to feel the pressure points. I think sculling drills are great exercises for feeling the pressure points. But while swimming one also cannot feel the points he/she feels while doing the drills, so doing drill and swimming are different things. One can do drills perfectly but cant swim as fast as he/she desired.

As to SA's question, i can say that my pressure points changes according to my technique, I feel less pressure when I extend more( when I swim with less strokes per lap). When I swim with less forward extension I feel more pressure below my forearm and elbow, this feeling starts as soon as I catch the water with 30 degrees bent wrist, then in order to apply power I rotate my hips by throwing my outside(recovery) arm forward. While doing this scapula and shoulder muscles throws my recovery arm forward above my head by the help of hip rotation. Then the pulling phase starts, while I am pulling I am not consuming all my hip rotation, because after the pull phase there is another phase called the push phase. 60% of the hip rotation is used for the pull phase 40% of the hip roation is used for the push phase. Catch phase is the point where I feel the most pressure and Pull, Push phases are power phases. In my opinion, as far as I observed this percentages vary in each swimmer, acorrding to the anatomical features. Hope this answers your question.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by SA on Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:59 pm

Thanks for your detailed answer. All the throwing motions start at the ground, so in my opinion the throwing of the recovering side starts with  a connected leg in the water (doesnt have to move much, just find resistance for the rest of the body to push off from) translates to hips translates to shoulder.
I guess you agree on this sequence of events?

I liked the article and the concept of pressure points.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:58 am

SA wrote:Thanks for your detailed answer. All the throwing motions start at the ground, so in my opinion the throwing of the recovering side starts with  a connected leg in the water (doesnt have to move much, just find resistance for the rest of the body to push off from) translates to hips translates to shoulder.
I guess you agree on this sequence of events?

I dont agree with this. On ground it is like so, but in water every motion starts with mostly from hips and torso not from the legs.

In long distance events such as 400m and above;
legs have no propulsive effect in average,  kicking is for lifting the legs not for speed in 90% of the race.


Last edited by nightcrawler on Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by Sprinter on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:23 am

Concerning that idea of a "throwing motion, starting at the ground": this seems to come from the RaceClub (Gary Hall Sr). A sport scientist and known coach once told me, that he thinks this is complete nonsense: swimming is absolutely different in that swimming means weightlessness, WITHOUT any grounding, and the essential motion is pulling, not throwing.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by SA on Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:27 pm

there we go again. I am not talking about propulsion . I amtalking about action reaction fundamentals.

Lets say in walking you move the upper torso and arms in countermotion to the legs. This is to keep evrything balanced.

In swimming we walk with the arms and the leg reacts to that motion with the most natural of al, the 2Bk, in the same manner the arms react to walking on land.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt6_bqj_808.
Do you agree the leg wants to kick automatically to counteract the disturbing forces  if you throw a whole arm and shoulder forward ?

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by SA on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:49 pm

NC because you are simming 30 plus years and are so convinced I ried to swim really without a kick.

Basically I shifted the balance point about 10 cm further upfront, so it felt like I was balancing on the chest/belly pushing the front a bit down and letting the hips and legs rise a bit.
Reaching extra far with the shoulder forward tipped the boat a bit down at the front, extending the arm also a bit deeper under the watersurface.
Normally it feels like riding on the edge of the hipbone, now it felt like riding on the side of the stomach.
To get rotation it felt like I was bending the body a bit at the waist, to get a boomerang shape from one angle to the other. This was achieved by activating the obliques much more than normal.
It felt like I was fishtailing a lot.
The upper moving part chest shoulders arms felt light. shoulder pulled and rotated around the axis more by the obliques. The light feeling of the upper moving structure was more made for higher strokerates.

compared to my normal strokes the differnce was

- balance on chest
- more obliques
- felt like bending at the waist
- felt like fishtailing.

can you conclude anything from this?


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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:46 am

SA,
What have you given to swimming and what are you expecting? Have you been swimming over 50km a week for 10 years non-stop? NO! Even if you had done, this also wouldnt guarantee that you became a good swimmer, it also depends on the talent, anatomical and mental capabilities. I know swimming is insane, that is why I am always saying "after 40 years of age peaople should go home and caress their grand-children".  Very Happy

Anyway; since you are (or you wanna be) insane, then, I will continue and give you a receipt which requires sacrifice!

From your explanations I see that you have a lack of swimmer's anatomy such as many new learners. Spending much time in the water is a way but not adequate, you must also spend time for core exercises on dry land everyday.

In the water:

I can recommend you to swim with pullbuoy and paddles for a couple of months:

Day1:
Set1: 40x50m R:10" with standart bean shaped small pullbuoy + finis agility paddles (no kick)
Set2: Put off the equipment and do one arm drills (1000m non stop with very easy pace)

Day2:
Set1: 20x100m R:15" with standart bean shaped small pullbuoy + finis agility paddles (no kick)
Set2: Put off the equipment and do one arm drills (1000m non stop with very easy pace)

Day3:
Set1: 10x200m R:20" with standart bean shaped small pullbuoy + finis agility paddles (no kick)
Set2: Put off the equipment and do one arm drills (1000m non stop with very easy pace)

Day4:
Set1: 5x400m R:30" with standart bean shaped small pullbuoy + finis agility paddles (no kick)
Set2: Put off the equipment and do one arm drills (1000m non stop with very easy pace)

Day5:
Set1: 2x1000m R:60" with standart bean shaped small pullbuoy + finis agility paddles (no kick)
Set2: Put off the equipment and do one arm drills (1000m non stop with very easy pace)

Day6:
Set1: 2000m with standart bean shaped small pullbuoy + finis agility paddles (no kick)
Set2: Put off the equipment and do one arm drills (1000m non stop with very easy pace)

Day7: off - just do 10 minutes regular dry land exercises that I wrote below.

Repat the loop for 8 weeks with patience.

These 2 sets (pullbuoy+paddles and one arm drills) will give you a better proprioception in terms of balance and core body's reaction whilst pulling, soon the arm mechanics and kicking start to become automatical like reflexes then you will promote to one level up. As one arm drills you may do the below 2 exercises 500m for each:
One arm extended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d0P5V6SIbs
One arm by the side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzh5NVUCae8

On land (at home):
I recommend you to use a health ball and a mattress. You can find tons of exercises on the internet. Pick up only 5 of them(not more) and do them regulary 10 minutes everyday. with no days off

Good luck,
NC

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by SA on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:20 pm

We are talking about no kick swimming, so i expect one arm demos without kicking .....
(Cottmiler would love to see that too)

There are different school of thoughts in swimming. This felt much like the float and paddle drill, dicussed a year ago.

float and paddle: no kick core driven swimming and rotation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9emyWcqrLXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47R995eM9B4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqZIBAuT4z0
as can be seen, a lot of bending and fishtailing.

I was influenced early on by the bottom up swim school, which served me well going from some unconscious leg movement to conscious 2BK or 6BK.
bottom up swimming: Kick driven rotation
http://www.h2oustonswims.org/articles/bottom_up_swimming_revised.html
http://www.h2oustonswims.org/articles/bottom_up_swimming_part2.html


I am still in the process of adding more float and paddle upperbody action and reducing the hip roll.
In my opinion its not so black and white, right or wrong. The 2 styles can be mixed a bit.
YOu think the bottom up approach is nonsense?

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:14 pm

I cant say rubbish, it depens on the distance you targeted, for 50-100-200m races legs are beneficial but above distances controversial. i dont agree with bottom up swimming approach, because legs have no substantial role during arm actions, if they were so, i wouldnt swim 1000m with the same pace with ankle bands(keep in mind thst my kick is effective than my arms)

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by SA on Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:49 am

So normally, you dont help rotation a bit with rotational kicks in the manner described by Emmet Hines?

I guess your legs connect to rotation more the same way as people use some very light dolphin kick while swimming with an ankle band.
Thats working like one leg in the middle, but you still can get rotation from it.
Agreed?

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by cottmiler on Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:14 am

SA, I know your question is aimed at nightcrawler but.....

The whole body rotation, clicking from side to side is instigated by the hand at the front.

The legs just need to align themselves with the water flowing over them so as to minimise drag.

This assumes that your kick only lap time is lower than your arms only lap time.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:58 pm

cottmiler wrote:
The whole body rotation, clicking from side to side is instigated by the hand at the front.
The "kick drives the rotation" is mentioned in that Roland Schoeman video.

I believe all these ideas about connecting the kick to something else are not appropriate for the adult learner. It seems to me of the utmost importance to get the kick INDEPENDENT of anything else (though without artificiality). Once you have a good degree of independence (the steady kick!), then a natural rhythm will likely emerge.

Avoiding the bending in hips and knees, using a small flutter kick with feet close together (and pointed), with steady movement throughout the whole cycle, that seems the foremost goal (and not so easy). All the synchronisation ideas seem to make sense only once that is mastered.

And I have heard high-level coaches saying (several), that the kicking is best left alone: you do not gain much by interfering, but there is a great risk of harming the stroke.

Kicking seems to be an area where looking at professional swimmers is most likely a big mistake (for adult learners): sure, *they* might bend the knee, *they* might think of some connection, but that sits on top of a completely different beast. Say, to make a guess, 20 s for 25m is the threshold (pure kicking): if you can do that, then I believe you could (but you don't need to) consider more refined question, but slower than that, the kick is likely so deficient that you better concentrate to get it steady, small, relaxed.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by Sprinter on Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:43 pm


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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by nightcrawler on Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:16 am

SA wrote:So normally, you dont help rotation a bit with rotational kicks in the manner described by Emmet Hines?

I guess your legs connect to rotation more the same way as people use some very light dolphin kick while swimming with an ankle band.
Thats working like one leg in the middle, but you still can get rotation from it.
Agreed?

In order to find out something you have to change your point of view. You cant discover a new thing by focusing on the same aspects. Give yourself 8 weeks and do the workout i wrote above, that will teach you the leg-arm timing and balance.

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

Post by SA on Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:38 am

Cottmiler, dont totally agree here, the arm leading the rotation is mainly a source in the long skate out style swimming and Ti style.
Plenty of swimmers have pressure under the arms right from the start and this damps the rotation at the front, a rotation that has started earlier and is used in the catch. Thats a different style, but ]I know what you are talking about.

Sprinter. dont, half agree with you. Usually I like the well timed kick where the kick is connected to the pull and the switch to the otherside like a geared mechanism (KPN style), but you are right that being obsessed with this timing can feel a bit restrictive. I also had good swims with the kick doing its thing feeling a bit connected with the arms through an elastic band, not totally rigid connected to the arms movement. That slight delayed or forward working kick seemed to work fine too.

Nightcrawler. You cant go wrong with one arm swimming unless you excecute it wrong, but I get your solution.
A total focus on one arm swimming for a while might burn in the right moves ones and for all.
Since I always will be a crap swimmer and your diet possibly would only make that a bit less crappy I probably wont follow your advice completely, but will do more one arm untill it works right automatically.
My one arm swimming comes most easily pulling with the normally weak arm at the normal breathing side.
(normally swim with longer stroke on non breathing side, shorter stroke on breathing side,bit loping style) Does this tell something?

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Re: Broken Arrow Drill

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