Nightcrawler is Back!

I m not saying rubbish when everytime someone on the black book says something. If these theories (scientifically and/or practically not proven ideas) are not taking me to next step, then these are really trash for me and so are they. Do you think that i havent tried them? Let me say, I have followed their methods for 8-9 years(2006-2015) while you didnt know even the way of the pool. They contributed on my swimming nothing, just a waste of time.

You are hyphnotized because you, cottmiler, sa are always giving examples through TI or SS internet invaders as if they were the swimming authorities... Ask a 16 year old 3:50 400m swimmer whether he knows about TI or SS, he doesnt, because they can only hunt the rich old post learners not the competitives.

When i m talking about swimming you must be sure that the subject that i m discussing has already been experinced in my 35+ years of background by myself in the water on several maybe 100+ occasions.

The subject was already clear but lets make it more clear; these rubbish stuff wont make you a better swimmer. But swimming regularly and finding the right path for yourself will carry you to the next step, this is what i m repeating!

Instead of wasting time with useless TI and SS stuff even "Dolce far niente" is better

Well, it seem we could go on forever with this conversation but this would be non productive for both of us. Let's forget about brands and talk only about swimming, ok? By the way I'm recently doing some progress and I'm quite happy with it (see the "under-rotation" thread), and you're doing fine as well from the latest workouts you posted.

Salvo

12.03.2017-4500m, SCM, Afternoon session

20*50m crawl int:45" (avg:39", SPL:16, 6bk)
20*25m crawl doggy paddle (avg:19", SPL:17, 2bk)

20*50m crawl int:45" (avg:37", SPL:19, no kick, legs trailining behind like a can tied by a rope and trailing behind a just married wedding car )
20*25m crawl with ankle bands (avg:18", SPL:18)

20*50m crawl int:45" (avg:38", SPL:17, 2bk and 6bk mixed)
500 crawl easy (6:52, SPL:16, 2bk)

Yesterday's and Today's sessions:


14.03.2017-4800m, SCM, Morning session

Set1: 60*50m crawl int:45" (AvgTempo:39", AvgSPL:17, KickPattern:6bk-2bk)
Recovery: 100m kicking

Set: 1500m crawl with ankle bands (Tempo: 21:44, AvgSPL:18)
Recovery: 100m kicking

100m Test: 1:02 (splits: 14"-15"-15"-16") my ancient friend Tolga measured my time and laps splits.


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15.03.2017-4500m, SCM, Morning session

Set1: 20*50m crawl int:45" (AvgTempo:38", AvgSPL:17, KickPattern:6bk)
Recovery: 100m kicking

Set2: 3x200m crawl with ankle bands int:3' (2:48 - 2:49 - 2:46, AvgSPL:19)
Recovery: 100m kicking

Set3: 20*50m crawl int:45" (AvgTempo:38", AvgSPL:18, KickPattern:2bk)
Recovery: 100m kicking

Set4: 400m crawl with ankle bands (Tempo:5:42, AvgSPL:19)
Recovery: 100m kicking

Set5: 20*50m crawl int:45" (AvgTempo:38", AvgSPL:18, KickPattern:2bk)
Recovery: 100m kicking

wow, very solid sessions! I see you're increasing mileage as well. Is 1:02 your PB? Did you kick hard, and do you remember your SPL?

Salvo

15.03.2017-2000m, SCM, Afternoon session

Set1: 32*50m crawl int:45" (AvgTempo:38", AvgSPL:17, KickPattern:2bk)
Recovery: 400m kicking

At lunch time did a short session.

Salvo,
1:02 is not my PB. When i was young i used to swim 1:01.
Of course i m kicking in such short trials, it is sprinting. Nowadays I am also doing some longer distances such as 200-400, while doing these I dont kick or use ankle bands.

16.03.2017-4200m, SCM, Morning session

Set1: 20*50m crawl int:45" (AvgTempo:40", AvgSPL:18", KickPattern:2bk)
Recovery: 100m kicking

Set2: 20*25m crawl doggy paddle drill int:25" (AvgTempo:19", AvgSPL:17, KickPattern:3-1-1)
Recovery: 100m kicking

Set3: 20*50m crawl int:45" (AvgTempo:39", AvgSPL:17, KickPattern: mixture of 3-1 and also breathing was not only in each 3 strokes, also used mixed breathing patterns, for kore details see my thread with rescpect to this subject: https://theswimforum.palstani.com/t57-breathing-and-kicking-patters-with-combinations)
Recovery: 100m kicking

Set4: 12*25m crawl with ankle bands int:25" (AvgTempo:19", AvgSPL:18)
Recovery: 100m kicking

Set5: 20*50m crawl int:45" (AvgTempo:38", AvgSPL:18, KickPattern:2bk)

Notes:
Today I was tired and reluctant, because yesterday I dealed with my wife, she got sick, we stayed at the hospital all the night. I like such crappy days because these days let me to find out some tricky techniques to maintain my pace. And today was one of the such days! In the last set(set5), in which I was already worned out, I was obliged to find out a solution to make me faster in order to catch up on the interval(45").

Solution that I found out:
Extending as I am doing every time, then instead of pulling throughly by doing 40 degrees body rotation i did less body rotation such as 30 degrees and pulled under my belly button by breaking my elbow a bit more than everytime I do (70-80 degrees instead of 100-110 degrees). I gained 2 seconds per 50m by using 2bk(1-1-1) and the breathing pattern in each 3 strokes.

See my demonstration below in order to visualize in your mind, in order to make it clear in your minds I am showing my more powerfull pulling path on SS's one of the wrong photages through which they have been hypnotizing our minds for over 10+ years:
https://i.servimg.com/u/f58/19/59/08/47/freest10.jpg

Do you feel the water flow from your fingertips to your elbows at the underside of the arm when you extend and press down into catch?

I watch Thorpe, You should do too   . (although I think a lot is personal here) Looks like what you are saying isnt it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHszSCgMkpU

Hi SA,
Of course i am feeling the water under my hands, wrists, elbows and lats while pressing a bit down during transition from catch to pull phase. Why should I watch Ian Thorpe, am a swimmer at the same/or similar level with Ian Thorpe?
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Today's session:

17.03.2017 - 4000m, SCM, Morning Session
Set1: A straight 60x50m crawl int:45" (AvgTime:38", SPL:17, KickPattern:2bk)
My video during the set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOpuyio_z0c

Set2: 20x50m crawl doggy paddle int:48" (avg:40", SPL:16")

nightcrawler wrote:
Solution that I found out:
Extending as I am doing every time, then instead of pulling throughly by doing 40 degrees body rotation i did less body rotation such as 30 degrees and pulled under my belly button by breaking my elbow a bit more than everytime I do (70-80 degrees instead of 100-110 degrees).

I like this! I had already experimented pulling under the body some time ago with success, don't really know why it just disappeared after a while (oftentimes our strokes take unwanted evolutions ).
Anyway, today I jumped in the pool with this focal point and it suddenly felt great: the body felt stable and aligned and the water thick as if I was paddling over a surf board. Swam the first warmup 100m at 17SPL in 1:32 which is probably as fast as I ever swam in warmup. And the rest of the session was very good as well.

From my point of view and according to my stroke flaws, pulling this way is less error prone: by pulling under the body, the hand is less likely to press water in wrong directions and it is also harder to cut short at the end of the stroke (the push phase). You are encouraged to pull all the way back and not skipping or shortening the push phase. The only "downside" I experienced during the workout (but actually it's not a downside) is that because you pull with more power you also get tired sooner if you don't have more power Did you feel the same, comparing to the slippy sloppy stroke? Anyway this is probably not a downside.

Salvo

Yes but you can pull if you have power, unless you cant apply power. You may also learn to control the power(wattage) applied. Must do some dryland isokinetic rope pulling (exergenie) exercises to increase the range of your power this will facilitate to learn how to apply proper and sustainable power in the water. But in any case dont expect miracles, fiat 500 can never be BMW740.

Todays's session:
18.03.2017 - 3900m, SCM, morning session
Set1: 12*25m crawl int:25" (avg:17", SPL:17)
200m kicking
Set2: 20*50m crawl int:44" (avg:38", SPL:17-18, 2bk,6bk)
100m kicking
Set3: 20*50m crawl int:44" (avg:38", SPL:17-18, 2bk,6bk)
200m kicking
Set4: 24*50m crawl int:44" (avg:38", SPL:17-18, 2bk,6bk)

Notes: 50s on 45" became automatic, so that started doing the 50s on 44" instead of 45".

Todays's session:
19.03.2017 - 3500m, SCM, morning session
Set1: 24*50m crawl int:44" (avg:39", SPL:18, 2bk)
200m kicking
Set2: 16*25m crawl with ankle bands int:25" (avg:18", SPL:18)
200m kicking
Set3: 24*50m crawl int:44" (avg:39", SPL:18, 2bk)
200m kicking
Set4: 4*25m crawl max speed int:40" (14-14-13-14)

Today it was the last session of the week, this week i did 25k in total, last week it was 28k and the previous week it was 29k, getting a bit tired. I started to get some complex amino acid supplements and vitamin B in order to beat the fatigue and sleeping 1-2 hours a day more to recover better.  In the last 3 weeks i took my 50m set intervals from 45" to 44" and performed 2 seconds pace improvement in my sustainable 100 pace. When 44"s starts becoming natural(can be done easily) i will again take the interval 1 second down to 43", waiting to see my body's response to 44"s in a couple of weeks.

All in all, if i can reach to the 20*50m int40"(34" average) fitness level, which means 10% more improvement and around 36-37 minutes 3k, i will be unbeatable in masters in my country and also a respectfull master swimmer in any masters squad across the world.

A friend of mine claims that short USRPT set repetitions such as 25-50-100m  are not for the distances above 1500m. He says that one should better do at least 15x200m if preparing for the 3K races and the rest period between the repetitions should be that of lap time(if split times for 25m is 20 seconds then rests should be maximum 20 seconds).

In order to decide whether it works or not today I did the below sets:
Set1: 15x200m int:3:00 (2:42 average, last:2:36)
Set2: 20x50m int:45"(avg:39")

Notes: In Set1 I arranged my watch's timer to 21" for each 25m lap split and tried to hold that, in all repetitions I was beyond the 21", which means I turned each 25m before the beep. In Set2 my HR was higher than Set1.
Conclusion: Swimming 50s with tight interval is harder than swimming 200s. No need to swim distances over 50m for marathon swimming races.

Today's session:
22.03.2017 - 4500m, SCM, morning session

Set1: 20*50m crawl int:45" (avg:39", SPL:18, 2bk)
20*25m doggy paddle drill int:25" (avg:20", SPL:17)
100 kicking

Set2: 22*50m crawl int:45" (avg:39", SPL:18, 2bk)
20*25m doggy paddle drill int:25" (avg:20", SPL:17)
100 kicking

Set3: 24*50m crawl int:45" (avg:39", SPL:18, 2bk)

Today's session:
24.03.2017 - 4500m, SCM, morning session

Set1: 50*50m crawl int:45" (avg:39", best:36, SPL:17-18, 6bk,2bk)
40*25m doggy paddle drill int:25" (avg:20", SPL:17)
300 kicking
Set2: 12*50m crawl int:44" (avg:38", best:35", SPL:16-17, 6bk,2bk)
100 kicking

*Notes: This week I started to do the manmakers again, I am doing 50+ repetitions with 2x4kg dumbells, after 30 sweat is starting to drip from head onto the mattress . Today I could manage to do the 50s on 44", I think from now on I have broken the int:44" barrier by doing 12x without any failure, if one can achive 12x soon can achieve 60x too. 50s on 44"(with 38" average) are quite harder than on 45"(with 39" average), that 1 sec makes big(2,5%) difference. In order to swim 1 second faster I dropped the SPL by applying more power whilst pulling and concentrated on longer extension with better streamline from head to toe. Manmakers help to keep my posture straighter, more streamlined and this leads to better pace.

We can only dream of your skill.

Referring to the thread, "what is your favourite dryland exercise", can you try the torso twist test as I have just described, lying flat on floor please?

ok cottmiler, I will try and inform you

Hi Cottmiler,
I couldnt undestand the dry land exercises that you offered. Maybe I am doing something wrong, because when I lay donw and extend my two arms forward I could raise one arm over 50cm(not mm). You wrote in your post that you could do only 5cm. Might I have misunderstood something?

Anyway, I am doing/trying variety of dryland exercises including rope pulling(exergenie), theraband exercises, manmakers with 2x4kg dumbells, core exercises on mattress, fitball exercises for core body stabilization, burpees for explosive power, etc... And as a result I may say that the most 2 effective exercises for swimming are rope pulling and theraband exercises and after these exercises lay down on the mattress and do the core body exercises while watching TV. These 2 equipments have large variety of movements maybe 1000+ but 4-5 movements by doing sets like 4x20 for each exercise can be enough for fitness development if you are already swimming 5-6 days a week. Other kinds of exercises are also good but there wont be time to do all of them also while swimming 5-6 days a week it is really hard to recover for the following day.

Nice to hear from you!

Since you are one of the forum's top swimmers, I wonder how much torso twist occurs when you swim.

I was thinking that by lying on a hard floor on your front, how much can you lift the shoulder joint off the floor.

In my case, very little. But I think this test is probably not very meaningful anyway.

The danger of trying to twist the torso when swimming seems to be the cause of bending at the waist as far as I am concerned.

Ok, now i got it.

Thanks for your complement, but i m just an average amateur swimmer, just trying to step up to next level. As you guessed, i m paying attention on the hip rotation in my each stroke, but i m trying to do it neither too much nor too less, rotation creates power, proper rotation generates power.

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Today's sessions:

29.03.2017-4200m-SCM-Morning Session 6:30-7:40

Warm up: N/A

Set1: 20*50m int:45" (avg:38", best:35")

Recovery: 24*25m doggy paddle drill int:25"(avg:19")

Set2: 20*50m int:45" (avg:38", best:36")

Recovery: 24*25m doggy paddle drill int:25"(ort:19")

Set3: 20*50m int:44" (avg:38", best:36")

Cool down: N/A

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29.03.2017-1500m-SCM-Lunch Time Session- 12:30-12:55

Warm up: N/A

Set1: 12*50m int:44"(avg:37")

Recovery: wait 30"

Set2: 10*50m int:43"(ort:37")

Recovery: wait 30"

Set3: 8*50m int:42"(avg:37")

Cool down: N/A

Notes: Going through the 40" interval, hope soon i can achieve at least 10*50m int:40"(avg:35"), may take months but i m locked to the target!

02.04.2017-6000m-SCM-Morning Session- 06:30-08:00

30*200m crawl with paddles int:3:00(avg:2:37, best:2:31, worst:2:40, SPL:16-17)

06.04.2017 - 4300m - SCM - Morning Session

Warm up: N/A

Set1: 20*50m freestyle int:45"(avg:38")
Recovery1: 10x25m freestyle, kicking with board, int:30" (avg:22")
Recovery2: 5x50m easy, 25m backstroke 25m buttefly int:60" (avg:45")

Set2: 20*50m freestyle int:44"(avg:38")
Recovery3: 10x25m freestyle, kicking with board, int:30" (avg:22")
Recovery4: 5x50m easy, 25m backstroke 25m buttefly int:60" (avg:45")

Set3: 1000m freestyle time trial (13:24)
2 minutes break
50m freestyle time trial, water start (30")

Cool down: 100m freestyle kicking, 100m back stroke, 50m buttefly

Notes: There was Turkish national waterpolo team in the pool, they are having camp this week, training very hard, doing lots of dryland exercises nearby the pool , doing matches, swimming sessions, etc. Luckily I m swimming in water polo federation's pool, so that I saw them doing 50m-100m time trials this morning, their coach is my ex swimming coach, he had trained me 20 years ago... I chat with him while he was taking their 50-100m times, he recommended me not to give up swimming. The team did water start trials with max effort, best of them swam 50-100 meters swam sequently 24"- 53", their average times were 26" and 55", when you add dive advantage to this time this means that they can swim 22" and 52", may be better than these, because this was at the end of their session. Obvioulsly they are using very short but high cadance strokes, their average SPLs for 25m is around 25 stokes, when I first watched them and saw their cadance I was shocked! They were almost not kicking. But they are the national team sportsmen, their ages are around 18 and have very strong muscles and good cardiovascular systems.

Today I did 1000m time trial, came 13:24. This means that almost 1:20 pace per 100m, still very poor, but better than my last time trial. Swimming sub 13 minutes would be satisfactory for me, I am not ready for this yet.

I was inspired and did a 50m time triala at the end of session, unfortunaltely my old body could hit 30", with dive start it can be 28" may be 27" if ı can rest enough 1-2 days before the trial. 30 seconds for 50m not good for my age group but not also a bad time for a long distance amateur swimmer.

07.04.2017 - 4300m - SCM - Morning Session

Warm up: 4 minutes hot shower

Set1: 1000m freestyle (13:28)
Recovery1: 10x25m freestyle, kicking with board, int:30" (all easy, avg: 24")
Recovery2: 10x25m 25m backstroke 25m butterfly int:30" (all easy, avg:21")

Set2: 2x(10x50m) freestyle broken-1 minute rest between int:43" (avg:37")
Recovery3: 10x25m freestyle, kicking with board, int:30" (all easy, avg: 24")
Recovery4: 10x25m 25m backstroke 25m butterfly int:30" (all easy, avg:21")

Set3: 20*50m freestyle int:44"(avg:39")
Recovery5: 100m freestyle easy kicking with board
4x25m int:30"freestyle with 90% effort - 100m race pace (14"-15"-16"-14")

Cool down: 100m freestyle easy

Notes: Pool was crowded with 16-17 years old monofin swimmers, when they take off the fins all are swimming very poor, even cant catch me with my cool down pace, with this mentality they can never be good swimmers. They also dont respect the people in the lane swimming better than them. nyway, I tried to keep my concentration and focused on my breath control, stroke timing, tried different combinations in the 50meter sets. I am fed up with such annoying snobs around the pool, rebuked those "fin-monkeys" in the locker room, instead of taking bath in the pool they should better go home and jerk off

Today at lunch time I have the intention of doing another session around 2500m, this week I want to break the 30K barrier.

With same kind of training sessions I completed the last week with 28K total distance, not bad for an IT guy sitting and looking at the computer all the day!

Since the pool is closed on Mondays, I am feeling groggy on Tuedays, as though I havent been swimming for a couple of months...

11.04.2017 - SCM 4500m - Morning Session
20x50m crawl int:45" (avg:39", SPL:17)
600m easy free (8:43, SPL:16)
20x50m crawl int:45" (avg:39", SPL:17)
600m easy free (8:41, SPL:16)
20x50m crawl int:45" (avg:39", SPL:17)
300m easy free (4:20, SPL:16)

Since the following Sunday there is going to be referendum, the pool will be closed on Sunday and so that I am want to do a couple of double sessions this week.
Hope I can swim after this elections, polls show that Erdogan will probably be the only president with the new constitution and system, wish civil war doesnt happen.